Metal Reviews

Drum off.

John Longstreth (Metal's best) and Al Foster (One of Jazz's best, I assume) need to take time out of their busy lives, and play one anothers work, and other various pieces, and all sorts of other crap in a full scale drum off, because frankly, there's no other way to make a legit comparison. A long shot, and not likely to happen. I guess I figured you'd just assume drum off, because it seemed obvious to me. My bad, sir.

I hate to say it, but most jazz drummers would rip the faces off most metal drummers, although I'd imagine there is some overlap: The best metal drummers can surely beat the below average jazz ones (I hope so, at least). It's not just speed, it's about subdivisions and polyrhythmns, which are not used in metal to anything like the extent they are in jazz. Plus, most metal drummers will be playing something rigid they've spent ages learning off by heart, whereas jazz drummers are forced to be more intuitive and improvisational, and react immediately and spontaneously to other rhythmn section members.

But I have it from reliable sources that apparently the "official" best technical drummer alive is Mike Mangini, and the only band I know he was in was Extreme, so... go figure!

Rio is right.

Sorry, it's not possible that Longstreth would be able to match Foster. Man, just listen to the first few minutes of Come Get It, off Star People. Foster can outdrum Longstreth because of his ingenuity and improvisation, which are things Longstreth -and most metal drummers- lack.

anyway... music is, fortunately, not a competition... it's art ! so there are no best drummer, best bassist, best kazoo player etc...

it's all individual perspectives and tastes and that is why after 30+ years Charlie Watts (as lousy as he is) still drums for the Rolling Stones...

on the drum matter I think Buddy Rich and Tony Williams slayed all the others and they were both jazz drummers so I think I'll agree with Rio too but I won't say someone is stupid because he thinks a metal drummer (from Meshuggah for exemple) is better... RESPECT MY BROTHERS (even if that makes me look like a fucking hippie ! :twisted: )

Thelonius Monk,Coltrane(of course),it may not be that good Jazz but i like Chic Corea,Django Reinhart,Joe Pass,Gigi Cifarelli,Sylvain Luc, Joe Zawinul.

Like I said, you've never heard John Longstreth outside of his metal stylings, so how could you know? And sorry I keep backing Mr. Longstreth, but I just love his work.

He who believes that Thomas Haake is better than Tony Williams isn't stupid, he's just wrong.

Well... Okay, Dead Machine, you've convinced me. Just send me the MP3s that highlight Flo, and the rest of Metal's best, floundering as they try to play in a jazz setting, and I never argue with you on anything again.


It's just such a kicker to think that drummers in metal will never be on par with jazz drummers. My whole world is turned upside down, really. Seems so weird, because metal heads seem to be happy with the drums, and it all seems to flow perfectly with the genre, but I guess their barbaric ways caused the guitarists, and the bassists, and even the vocalists to work even harder so they could work around their... "Drumming problems." Because NOW, now I am absolutely sure, with out an ounce of doubt in my heart, that all drummers in metal have no sense of good song writing, and that they aren't really good, they just play something that is tolerable alongside the other instruments, and add PRIMITIVE APE rhythm, and nothing more. Silly monkeys, go eat your bananas. I've got better things to do, rather than speculate why you play the way you play, even though it flows well with your genre, and no other genres, so keep walking. And I don't care how you learned to play, because I know from looking at you that it was with sticks and rocks, and not professionally, or with jazz influences or instructors. GO AWAY. Blast beats and thundering rhythms have NO PLACE IN METAL! We just pretend that you intended to write and play your drums that way, but we know it's all accidental. So just die!


Wow, it felt really good to get that out. Well, anyway, send those MP3's Dead Machine.

I don't think that a tech-tastic jazz drummer would necessarily make a metal band sound better- or as good, even, because metal is a very specifically idiomatic style. As with any genre it requires just as much appreciation for- and familiarity with- that style to perform convincingly. And you are probably right, I imagine that metal drummers- generally speaking- have a greater influence compositionally on their bands than Elvin Jones would have had in Coltrane's quartet, for example. Of course, Jones compensated for this in that he could spontaneously and dramatically influence the way the band sounded when playing live, and everyone else would be required to match his intensity levels. This is one of the reasons jazz drummers need to have a higher level of technicality: they are required to have the tools needed to play completely spontaneously in response to other improvising musicians.

The other reason is this: Unlike metal, jazz has a long history of actively exploring the technical limits of rhythmn, harmony, and indeed their own instruments. Whereas major new branches of the metal tree have predominantly been the results of experimentations with atmosphere and imagery, the equivalents in jazz have frequently been the result of the technical breakthroughs of its pioneering musicians. While these "pioneers" are usually saxophonists ( ), a spirit has been instilled in all jazz instrumentalists, that the artistic heights are often reached by pushing yourself technically to the limits. In short, jazz musicians regard technique as much more important than metal musicians do.

Don't they have drum shows? A drum-off isn't such an impossible idea. And would a jazz drummer be able to play for Cryptopsy?

Calm. Down. Okay? Deep breaths. Calm blue ocean. Calm blue ocean. Not violent storm-tossed ocean. Calm blue ocean.

My point is purely one of comparison from two different genres. It's pretty safe to assume that a pure-jazz style of playing probably wouldn't go over well in a metal setting. It's just that jazz drummers, from points of technicality, ability, and improvisation, are all much better than metal drummers.

Metal drummers certainly suit the genre better.

I realize that I sounded like an elitist POS, but I was just in a bad mood that day. So, let's forget about it. If you want, I can send you an mp3 of Come Get It, so you can see how good Al Foster is.

Now, we all good?


It is an impossible idea. Jazz drummers would probably look down on all the metal drummers and what-have-you. It would turn ugly, or they wouldn't show up at all.

In any event, yes, a jazz drummer could play for Cryptopsy, he'd just find it immensely boring.

This is why I have a serious problem with jazz. Jazz fans almost always resort to the technical superiority aspect. If people actually love the sound of jazz itself, good for them, but why does this matter. Totally different genres have completely different requirements. There are a lot of people that listen to jazz just to they say do.

We have established that metal musicians aren't the best in the world, but unlike popstars or average rock bands, they are actually musicians. Jazz has always reeked of arrogance to me, and that's why I really don't seek it out.

Yeah, a lot of jazz musicians that I've known (more than you'd think) are arrogant. Very arrogant.

A few are nice, down-to-earth people. Not the drummers, ever. The drummers always seem to be jerks.

No worries, I was just joking around. Obviously. No need to send Al Foster, either, I was going to go on a bit of a jazz splurge soon anyway.

Yeah. We're good, buddy.

At least that arrogance you felt apparently hasn't detracted from your liking of the music.

The only Jazz I can really appreciate is the smoother, poppier, and more relaxing stuff (The Rippingtons and Spyro Gyra for example). I was never able to get "in" to the old-time swing-jazz stuff.

Ah. Wasn't certain.

Well, good to know we're not on bad terms.



If I really cared about what artists thought of their art, or of other people's art, I wouldn't listen to NSBM. Or Iced Earth pre-The Dark Saga.