Metal Reviews

I don't want a situation like that, by any means, but I find it very hard to feel any compassion for them. Like I said, I have many years first hand experience, and what I have seen is sickeneing.
I honestly couldn't care less if they rise out of their self-created sewer or not. I have my own problems, and they for sure don't give a damn about me or mine.
Any able-bodied man, and that extends to groups of men, that refuses to take care of themselves and their own, making every excuse in the book and blaming everybody else for their problems, deserves neither pity or respect, as far as I'm concerned.
And as for more money: any private business that operated under the methodology we have seen over the past 50 years or so, would have closed their doors a long, long time ago. But since it's an endless supply of tax dollars we are talking about, who cares, right? Like i said almost 50% of my hard earned money, I never get to even see as it is, now we are talking about more?
I feel bad for those blacks that want to take charge of their lives and not blame everybody else, play the game and actually make a better life for themselves, because, the bad behavior of the majority of blacks is really hurting them, too.
I'm not necessarilly a hard-hearted man, but I've seen enough to warrant the attitude I have.
I'm telling you all the money in the world will not amount to a damned thing, unless some serious changes occur in the overall attitude that grips the mentality of the black community.

Violent crime stats etc. is not the issue since nobody is disputing them. The issue I thought we were discussing is not whether there is a problem, but what causes this problem, what role history has in shaping it, and so forth. All you seem to have is just going back to bad stuff you've seen. Nobody has ever disputed that they exist, but that's not the point of this discussion.

Re: the teacher- noodles pretty much covers it. What's to refute? It's an anecdote, and the way the guy presents it and the prejudices he quite clearly has make it an untrustworthy one. How about this- I teach undergrads, and have absolutely no trouble from black students whatsoever, and in fact so far this semester it's been a black student that has been making the most constructive contributions to the class out of everyone. And how about the fact that half the students doing PhDs in the finance department, i.e. the hardest shit (if concurrently the most pointless) are all black Africans. There you go- an anecdote! Case dismissed! Oh wait- it doesn't work like that?

I probably know a bit more about it than you think, but that is neither here nor there, and the idea that apart from Fox the US media is "undeniably liberal biased" is a complete fantasy. I mean, it is, if you look at it from waaay over from the right, sure...

Thing is, though, maybe you should give a shit about the situation in the UK, because from a European perspective it's really easy to pick holes in the argument that welfare systems have any significant proportional contribution to causing the problem. Given that the welfare state in most European countries is larger/more generous than in the US (e.g. "entitlements" such as free healthcare), why aren't the same problems bigger instead of smaller?

In a word, the solution is employment. I mean you bring up Detroit as a particularly severe example. Is it just a coincidence that this is the US city which has had the largest exodus of jobs over recent decades? (I'm not sure if it's had the most, actually, but it's clearly been pretty bad)

I mean, you COULD then turn around and say "oh but black people don't want to work", but that is a nonsense in an environment in which unemployed far outnumber the amount of jobs available, anyway. And it would also seem completely ridiculous to anyone whose visitied large US cities where it seems every single service job is staffed by a black person.

The fact is, that it is cause and effect. Your solution is simply exacerbating the effect.

Just to try and keep multiple lines of debate going, here's an interesting look at the Robin Hood Tax that's recently been proposed over here.

http://socialliberal.net/2010/02/11/rob ... in-tights/

You seem to think that whatever the case is in the UK, automatically it will be the same in the US.
Two completely different systems, cultures and ways of life.
Also, African immigrants aren't the same as American blacks.
Apples and oranges.
And of course, to someone as far left as yourself, our news media would seem unbiased, but for anybody from right to center, it's as clear as day. Call it a fantasy all you like, but you are biased towards the far left yourself, so I'll take your slant on that with a grain of salt.

I dunno, the tax seems like a no-brainer to me. Society coming out of a recession caused, on some level, by financial speculation implements tiny little tax on financial speculation to raise money that could be transferred downwards to blameless people suffering from the causes of recession? What is the problem?

Not convinced by his reasons- seem quite standard Tory-isms to me. Although I can relate to the Richard Curtis thing.

The long term answer is democratic control over finance, though

Hasn't California shown that that doesn't go very well?

The unemployment rate currently in the States is higher now that it has been in 25 years. It is much highre than when the 1967 Detoit riots occurred.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_Un ... 0-2009.gif

Since the majority of those in the workforce are white (again, this has been established, otherwise why the need to level the playing field in the first place), we should be witnessing a massive upsurge in white crime.
Funny, I don't see whites rioting and burning down their neigborhoods, even though many of their own jobs have been displaced by East Indians and Asians. No, what they are doing is re-adjusting themselves to roll with the times; going back to school, taking lower paying jobs, etc.

But, I'll play along. Who's stopping anyone from creating jobs within their own neighborhoods? Nobody just "gives" anybody a job. You have to apply for it, and go through with the process.
Nobody owes anybody a job, you gotta earn it.
There's that entitlement mentality, again.
No serious employer will even consider for a moment hiring an uneducated thug with a massive chip on their shoulder.
Whites are savvy enough to go where the jobs are, even if it means starting all over again, why aren't blacks?
Asians come here and, within a generation, are on the path to success. Same with most other foriegners, that can barely speak the language.
What about Jews? they have had more than their share of adversity, yet they managed to become quite affluent, as a group.

No, the common demoninator for each of those groups is simple: work hard, stay diligent, don't expect anything from anybody, don't expect instant results and take personal responibility for your own fate.
Contrast that to the mentality of gimme gimme gimme, you owe me, it's not my fault, its racism, blah blahblah...

now which one is a proven recipe for success?

Well, I disagree that the US and the UK are apples and oranges. The differences are ones of degrees, not (usually) fundamental principles. i.e. the extent of generosity of the welfare state is different, but the overarching notion of a market-based capitalist society with collectivist concepts grafted to make it workable is common to both. Both are postindustrial societies, going through a sometimes traumatic change towards a service and finance-based economy. I would say the reason that large sections of society (namely working class youth) seem to exist outside of societal norms and to an apparently large degree reject it, can be attributed to similar- though not identical- factors.

It is true that African immigrants and black Americans are in very different situations- you are right that there really isn't a group comparable to black Americans on the planet that I can think of. I.e. a group that was forcibly brought to a country in which they didn't just happen to find themselves an underclass- but to which they were explicitly and intentionally brought so that they would be an underclass. This situation (i.e. the existence of a racially-defined underclass) continued until extremely recently- living memory for many people. It is far too soon to say that the legacies of that are no longer relevant. The legacies of centuries-old wars are still relevant to European society today- look at Northern Ireland.

Listen; I agree with you on individual responsibility 100% even if it may not seem it at times. If an individual comes into my class with a complex, is boorish, and demands things based on their race etc., then I will say they deserve the failure that will probably come to them.

But the question I want to ask is why do certain age groups, classes, and yes, ethnic groups collect more of these individuals than others? The conservative/right wing answers- either the racist one (because they are black) or the economic one (it's because of welfare) just don't have any explanatory power for me. Even if my specific answers don't convince anyone, I am certain that the real explanations lie in larger, structural factors, such as the economy. Not just the simple equation of poverty + joblessness= crime, but also much subtler things such as the demise of community and collective values and solidarity which I attribute to consumer culture and the smashing of any organised cross-community power groups.

Finally, re: the media, again, I disagree- in fact I would say that "centrist" is really pushing it. No secret I am on the radical left (not "far left", thanks), in fact it is something I am proud of. Of course there are loads of pro-Democrat liberal voices in the US media, but as far as I can tell they are simply Obama/Dems acolytes. They aren't actual serious bastions of ideas or principles- if you are looking for that from a left perspective in the US I have no idea where you would go apart from somewhere very marginal and academic. Whereas in a way I admire all those Becks and Limbaughs etc. in the US, because deranged as they are at least they actually discuss ideas rather than just party politics. It's not true that left ideas have never been important or relevant to Americans, either- labour and community movements expounding them have been incredibly strong throughout US history, but they have never once found any expression in the liberal/left media and become a coherent political culture, unlike US conservatism.

Eeesh, long post.... anyway, let's stop the rowing now? Interesting discussion which I'd like to continue in a less confrontational tone.

No idea about California, tbh. Of course, I am talking in principle here... that is IMO the best ends, and it is up to us to find out a way to make it function.

One quick thing, Africans historically are not the only people brought into a foreign land as slaves... and besides they were already slaves in their native land to begin with.
Regarding the nuts and bolts of American politics, way too much typing involved with that, so I'll pass on that one, but I disagree that pointing out the idea that American black culture is the problem is racist; it's not, it's merely stating the obvious.
Denying them their rights is racist, yes, but they should not be immune to warranted criticism, ESPECIALLY when people such as myself are footing the bill for the various programs set up to "level the playing field"... I have a right to ask "Well, WTF is my hard earned money going towards? When will I see some results?"
No confrontation, I am actually proud of the fact that for the past three days or so the three - five of us engaged in this conversation have kept it cool, as it can potentially become very heated.
But perhaps, we should all take a breather, for now, haha.
Cheerio!

California is in fairly dire straits, to put it bluntly.

V.; I also agree with you on the importance of culture and the impact it can have on the behaviour of a group or class. But I also think culture itself is a reflection of bigger things. E.g. Irish culture in 19th century England was incredibly disruptive, riot-based and alcohol-dominated. But, this was a result maybe not of the inherently drunken and violent nature of Irishmen, but of the fact that they were encouraged and shipped into the country specifically to work in short-burst "violent" jobs e.g. manual, non-thinking labour. Conversely the native English were supposed to be standing at factory machines for 12 hours a day, and thus had orthodox protestantism (i.e. a life of absolutely no fun and relentless work and prayer) virtually forced down their throats by the established Church.

Anyway, this isn't really directly relevant- just an example of a way in which the economic needs of a society and the way people are assigned to roles within it is itself a means of shaping people's culture. I mean, couldn't "gimme gimme" culture be a result of a relentlessly consumer-reliant society, just as much as it could be the result of a welfare one?

None of this excuses bad behaviour nor attempts to downplay it, but IMO it is a good idea to abstract from specific experiences and ponder questions such as these on a grander scale as a means of explaining. (Explaining, NOT excusing).

But yeah, this could have been much worse- perhaps it's best to agree to disagree (again).

*cancels flights to US and puts kitchen knife back in drawer*

haha, a kitchen knife won't do you any good over here, we're all packing rods, dontcha know?
It's a complicated issue, certainly, but I still believe that those that help themselves are the ones that succeed in life.

Anyway, yeah,I believe all bases have been covered on bothe sides of this debate, we'll leave it at that.
As always, no hard feelings.

This argument is a cluster fuck but I'll counter some of V's anecdotal evidence and say that my uni is in the most down and out part of town and I don't mind walking the streets. A lot of students have to hike through the ghetto, i.e. Over the Rhine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Over-the-Rhine#Crime

[quote]In 2009 a website, using data collected from 2005 to 2007, ranked a section of Over-the-Rhine north of Liberty Street as, statistically, the "most dangerous neighborhood in the United States."[/quote]
[quote]In July 2009 a rise in prostitution was reported along McMicken Avenue, although police believe real-estate development is pushing the women out of other parts of Over-the-Rhine into a smaller area.[/quote]

I drive down McMicken Avenue on a daily basis. I walk down these streets in a daily basis with my girlfriend. OtR has been improving slowly over the past two years but only by pushing the poor out of their homes to put in a Chipotle or Ben and Jerry's.

Black people aren't the problem, V. It's poor people. Not everyone can make it like you have and many others have. People are frustrated and try to make things work whether that be legitimately, which you admirably accomplished or you go beyond the law like many people in the slums, ghettos and bad sides of town have to do to make ends meet. Crime is the poor's way of helping themselves when society has excluded them from all other legitimate means.

The problem with America's past welfare policies is that investment in the lower classes hasn't come with any legitimate opportunities for those groups. Black people have accomplished "civilization" comparable to the West. David Hume leveled this same racist comment against blacks. Egypt is the most fitting example. There aren't any biological differences between races besides .05% of the 1% percent difference all humans share. Culturally, there are no differences between rowdy blacks and rowdy Irish or intelligent blacks and intelligent Asians. These differences you have are just sweeping generalizations with no firm foundations.

I'm pretty much wrapping it up here, but I'll respond because I respect your input and the time you took to express it.

I'm not stating that it's a genetic difference between the races that is responsible for the problems (not saying it isn't, either) rather a difference in mindset, culture, attitude towards themselves and the world around them. The idea has been planted in the black community's head that the are entitled to some kind of compensation, and that their failures are always the result of "racism", ergo, they are expecting something to be given them for nothing and they bear no personal responsibility for their own fate.
This is the mantra of their leaders, the politicians, and peers.
My assertion is that a bit of manning up and taking responsibility and control of their own lives, instead of dwelling on the past, would go a long way towards improving their collective lot.
Money isn't the answer; personal responsibility is. Poverty doesn't create the crime, ok I can understand theft, but what about assault, murder, rape and so on? How does poverty create that?


http://www.census.gov/population/www/po ... verty.html



Keep in mind, those numbers reflect the fact that blacks make up @ 12% of the US population, while whites are somewhere around 70%.

If poverty is the main indicator of crime, why is the black crime rate vastly higher than whites?
By your logic, white crime should be significanlty more rampant.

Funny that you mention Egypt, though, because it was built by slaves...

That article is saying that there's more poor white people, but that the poverty rate for whites is lower than other ethnic groups - "Even though the poverty rate for Whites was lower than that for the other racial and ethnic groups" - which fits what trapt said about poverty leading to crime...

They are still way disprortionate in regards to percentage of population.
If the strictly "poverty results in crime" position were true we would see white crime at a ratio of around 7:2, instead we see:

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2007/offense ... le_03.html

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/glance/race.cfm

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/race.cfm

How is rape murder and assault due to poverty?

I think this is a sweeping generalization. It may be apparent in the media wiht the likes of Sharpton but everyday blacks don't think this way. Despite the fact that in everyday life people can be and often are racist. Just because a group of black kids are hanging out; they're expected to be rowdy and loud whether they are or not. Black teens are just as loud as white teens. Yet they're perceived differently due to their skin color. And honestly most young black people I know expect this discrimination and they just simply ignore it and don't let it phase how they act.

If you're frustrated about your status you're more likely to vent it out. Domestic violence can often be pinpointed to trying to establish control or substance abuse. Those two things result out of a loss of control or status.

An attitude approving of assault, murder and rape results from a mentality where a person can't legitimately create a positive status for themselves so they create a status by kicking a white guy's ass or raping a chick or murdering and robbing a local store. This is basic strain theory. Lives are put under stress and crime is an outward attempt to create meaning.

Africans enslaving Africans just like whites enslaved whites through the use of indentured servants or feudalism. Yeah? Back in the 1900s, they use to say Egypt was built by African slaves enslaved by Greeks yet that has been debunked. Just because Egypt was built on slavery doesn't mean we should ignore its achievements; instead, we should see that it didn't have to rely on slaves. Hasn't it been proven recently the pyramids weren't built by slaves?[/quote]

Gang violence is an example of creating a status not based on income which the poor turn to. There has been studies like this questioning people in these types of situation. One example asked a guy why he stabbed someone he was stealing. He said the guy resisted, saw his face and he couldn't just let go of that money or let that guy live because of the environment he surrounded himself with. People would've kicked his ass, stabbed him, robbed him if he had not proven himself.

This isn't the right mentality but it results out of people trying to create a new status not based on income.