Metal Reviews

Why are we inviting them? They're coming already.

WTF is this stupid bullshit... I thought we were having a sensible discussion but apparently we're back to "people like rio"... I am crippling the left wing vote by voting for the only authentic left wing party on the ballot apart from Scargill's bunch? Care to explain that to me or is it just more blackmailing crap about "oh you have to vote for the nice liberal guys we tell you to otherwise the bnp will get in"? Typical liberal authoritarian thuggery, you should be a Labour cabinet minister.

And seriously, massive at the sheer patheticness of "Why not vote for the most progressive party and make it damn clear to local representatives that you expect something to be done!". How did that work out in 12 years of voting for Labour?

Sorry but I'm starting to think you wouldn't recognise "left wing values" if they bit you on the arse... Some of us actually dedicate a lot of effort to the furtherance of those values in real life rather than just lecturing others about them on the internet, so don't give us that bollocks about "sitting on the sidelines sniping".

whoah, whoah, giant block of text. spaced it up to make it more readable.

oh, okay, I get it. Look, you don't have to mask your dissatisfaction with the state of the world in this cloud of anger and vitriol. I understand that you obviously aren't contented with it either, but have decided to rationalize your support of an immoral system as realistic thinking.

'what are you doing that other organizations aren't?' What does that sentence mean? Do I have to be doing something new in order to be doing something worthwhile?

zad, please explain to me how any progress is made if we (we defined as the Americans here, all my knowledge concerning British politics is pretty surface-skimming and as such I don't feel qualified to make judgments) elect the centrist corporatists instead of the rightist corporatists? What is this 'similar ideals' bullshit? there isn't a single person in contemporary american politics today who is even left of fucking lyndon b. johnson anymore. barack obama is a joke, a generation of people my age are going to grow up thinking that obama = progressivism. the democratic party shares my ideals like kim jong-il shares his food.

anyway i have no idea what caused you to descend into this incredibly petty rage, why don'tcha check that ridiculous attitude somewhere else and stop preaching your disingenuous realpolitik twaddle here?

Some progress is better than no progress. You two will be hanging on for years waiting for a party that coincides exactly with your views, whilst the rest of the world just gets on with it. Where did I mention the BNP, rio? You split the vote, the Conservatives get in, next time you'll split the vote again and Labour will get in, etc. I haven't voted Labour once. Again, where did you get this idea that you have to completely agree with a party you vote for? Petty rage? Explain exactly how you are going to change the system, guys.

Big fish eats little fish; always, now and forever.
A million years of survival instinct hard-wired into the brain isn't going to just go away.
To think that humans will stop exploiting one another for personal gain on a large scale is hopelessly naive.

This whole notion that one should feel guilty for being "at the top of the food chain" is ridiculous; if it wasn't western civilisation, it would be somebody else.
We just figured out how to do it first.
I figure that the reason so many kids (the ones that benefit the most from the system we have in place, after all, college is still an upper middle class thing, for the most part, the bourgeois, if you will ) get so caught in the Kampus Kraze of ultra-liberal ideology is they feel guilty about being the haves, while their are so many have nots. Still too young to understand that that is life in the big city.
I never had that problem; leaving home at 16, I scraped, working whatever jobs I could (mostly hard labor) and selling weed or acid so that I could eat. College was not even an option, though I did learn a trade.
Perhaps that is the reason I'll never understand this whole "we are all shitty people because we are westeners blahblahblah"... that attitude is a luxury in and of itself.

All this politics is bullshit, anyway, no offense to anyone. Easy to theorize about some pie-in-the-sky idealist dream from the Ivory Tower of youth; once the burdens of life bend your knees, your priorities change. You'll see.
It's not as though anyone here has an exactly novel idea; all those radicals from the 60's, they traded in their peace love and happiness for a brand new Beamer and the latest in kitchen gadgetry, their long hair and bell bottoms for an Executive haircut and a Brook's Bros. wardrobe, their ideals for cash and stock options.

I voted for the SPUSA last election with the ticket of Brian Moore and Stewart Alexander. They don't share my views exactly, but they share them close enough.

Where do you get the idea that any progress whatsoever is going to be made in the proper areas if I vote for a party that is funded, for the most part, by the same companies that are busy exploiting populations overseas? In what possible reality will voting for this party change that situation or even make it more relevant?

as for 'education,' I'll be using what little free time I have for the next few years to set up a table in a part of NYC with a big 'What is Socialism? Come and learn!' sign, as well as continuing my activism in local rallies and causes to promote awareness.

I'd -love- to be able to change the system at a stroke, but hey! that doesn't work in the real world as you so studiously pointed out more than once. Should I just decide to give up and live with the knowledge that maybe I could have convinced one person of the horrors that are perpetrated in the name of making sure that there's always beef at the supermarket whether it's january first or august 23rd?

yeah, 'gets on with it.' Continues living their lives perfectly secure in their little white worldspaces while others, through nothing more than accident of birth, are trapped in eternal nightmares that are perpetrated to ensure that the military-industrial complex never gets bored and the wealth of nations comes right back home to the private sector. OORAH.

EDIT-

hey, um, no offense to you but I'm not really interested in addressing any of the points you raise in this post because, quite frankly, whatever I say to you you will think BLAH BLAH BLAH COLLEGE RADICAL GET SOME RESPONSIBILITIES ONCE YOU TASTE THE PROFIT MOTIVE YOU NEVER GO BACK BLAH BLAH BLAH.

if you are interested in constructive dialogue, which your post would seem to contradict, then say so and I'll try to address some of the things you bring up.

Nice copout, there.
And what makes you think I am the least bit interested?

How is it a copout? I said, quote, say that you want to have a jaw and I will do so, but your post seems to imply that you would outright dismiss everything I said without thinking about it in the slightest.

okay, so it seems that I was right. In that case, what would either of us gain from any kind of discussion? We would both leave with our particular views intact. Nothing you have said has impacted me in the slightest and nothing I have said has impacted you in the slightest, and since you're not even interested in anything I have to say on the subject, why are you saying 'nice cop-out?'

it's the equivalent of going to the grocery store knowing that you don't want any oranges and then complaining when there aren't any oranges and then the manager of the store comes up to you apologizing profusely and offering you a discount on the oranges that just came in, but then you tell him you never wanted any oranges and leave the store.

I don't dismiss it, I just think it is naive.
I mean, no offense again, but aren't you part of the bourgeoisie?
Med school? Not being a wise-ass, just making a point.
That costs plenty, and do you not live in the US and benefit from the very capitalist system that you wish to see done away with?

I am not interested in a long drawn out debate, no...
I do find the whole thing interesting enough, though.
Anyway, I made my post which is how I see it, there's no need to argue it, either way.

edit:
Just because someone expresses an opinion does not mean they are looking to change the minds of anyone else, or engage in a dozen pages of quote-boxed debate, you know.

'bourgeoisie' has a very specific definition, and neither of my parents belong to it. It doesn't just mean 'rich people,' if you had to reduce it to a couple of words, it would be 'middle management and up.'

the traditional definition: the bourgeoisie are the class that owns the means of production. They do not produce wealth, but profit from the work of others. My mother being a doctor and my father being an electrical engineer, neither of these are, as a rule, 'bourgeoisie' professions.

yes, I do live in the US through accident of birth. I do not speak any of the languages or have any of the contacts that would be necessary to live in a preferable nation or secure citizen status there, and an M.D. degree from a US institution will allow me to practice almost anywhere in the world.

EDIT- be that as it may, I see no reason to just let your posts go completely ignored merely because you have no interest in changing your beliefs or arguing with me.

SECONDARY EDIT- Thanks. yeah, that's a common misconception. It's not like a country could do without doctors, would be pretty silly to kill them all because they were part of the bourgeoisie or run them out of the country, no? as for the hefty salary, I have inalienable needs (food, housing, professional supplies). The rest can go to where it is needed.

Fair enough, but those are both professional occupations and a hefty salary comes with it, and perhaps I am mistaken, but I always associated the term bourgeois with upper middle-upper class, not aristocracy, but well enough off.
Hey, good luck with your ideals, I am not knocking you, I just don't see it (true egalitaianism / a socialist utopia, etc.) ever happening, at least not on any large scale where it would matter much..

haha, our quotes are all jacked up...
anyway, like I said, it's a nice ideal to have, I just don't have faith in humanity, I guess.
When it's down to the last two people on earth, they'll whittle it down to one over some possession or other, be it food or something shiny to look at.

The funny thing is, I am probably the least materialistic person you'll ever meet... I don't need much at all, so don't think that I am some capitalist pig feeding from the trough of the hardship of others. I believe true wealth comes from being happy with what you have, not in the empty crass pursuit of money / things...
My view is: carve out a nice enough existence for you and yours, and try not to fuck anybody over in the process.
People like you and me, we have no control over what our governmet (if you can call it that) does, not really. They are too big, have too much money and way too much power.

You may be right, but I'd like to think you aren't. Evo Morales is providing quite the large-scale experiment for the large-scale implementation of Socialist ideals, and not one that's tarred by a rockstar persona (Chavez). traditional examples of course have as much to do with socialism as the nazis did; their unilateral transformation into authoritarian-capitalist states is obvious proof of this.

edit- I didn't expect anyone posting on a metal forum to be a large-scale bourgeoisie cackling while he sucks the life out of people; that's just not very metal at all.

Since you're not materialistic, surely you can see the problems that are implicit in consumer culture? It's not as if it was always this way, where your best expressions of yourself are in what brands you adhere to. that's a relatively recent development.

No, I guess it's not...
my only luxuries (actually, they are needs) are music, a few books and movies.
No big screen, no boat, no toys at all to speak of.
But, you are right; living costs money, and so one must work.
Nothing at all wrong with being an M.D. or an engineer.

From The Good, The Bad and The Ugly:
"If you work for a living, why do you kill yourself working?"

But that isn't even the point right now. Simply ending the exploitation of third world workers, the oppression committed in order to sustain free markets and the growing inequality between the poor and the rich that is encouraged by the government's policies are more than enough problems to handle before we begin creating a utopia.

Yes, I despise the so-called conspicuous consumer (slave) culture in this country, but it is not for me to decide how they should live their lives. I always figured that the reason so many seek external worth materialistically is because of a lack of inner worth, or at least any knowledge of inner worth.

But if you can't plant the seed, the tree will not grow.

That might be the reason. It might be any number of reasons, many of which have to do with societal construction. The fact of the matter is that we aren't slaves to our desires anymore, or shouldn't be. There's a big difference between us and animals. We shouldn't be led so easily or build our institutions on a twisted version of the same principle that gorillas use to form prides.

the fact of the matter is that the first-world lifestyle is not sustainable in the long term. Something will happen eventually- the ecosystem can't just get more precarious forever without a great happening.

Perhaps we'll all die in it, or perhaps we will see what society grows out of that. In the meantime it's up to us, as civilized citizens of the first world, to spread awareness of ideas that have been falsified and cheated out of their rightful place in history.

it is true that the seed is necessary to plant, but where it begins is in the minds of the people. It can be done, what is uncertain is what it will lead to.