Metal Reviews

So you're just going to ignore the Government? I know we argue about this every so often, but I don't see that taking yourself out of the equation helps at all, sorry.

And



is fencesitting?

Huh. I love how every single non-American in the world was saying this during the election, and was repeatedly told to STFU bitch because Sarah Palin's baby has D.S. It's good that, in hindsight, it's pretty obvious the election was lost for the Republicans the moment they unveiled Sarah Palin and the whole of America facepalmed. Except a few Hilary-supporters, of course, who completely missunderstood the meaning of the word 'spunky'.

Thread derailed!

I -said- 'drank the kool-aid.'

also, your 'realpolitik' stance precludes any form of political change not enacted at the ballot box by the usual players, what a sadly defeatist attitude for someone in their 20's to have.

No, look, this is what you always miss about what I'm saying. (Don't mean that in a nasty way; it's probably me expressing it wrong).

In terms of politics, I believe in directness. So yes, operating entirely outside the government, which is based on elected representatives and is therefore by definition an indirect mode of political action.

Let us look again at the example of China. A Chinese worker is a victim of the (de facto) anti-Freedom of Association laws in that country, and is also a victim of the employer-friendly environment which means his wages can easily be kept from him. Does he think "ah well, maybe some reformers will take over the CCP and give us some limited electoral rights, then I can vote for the slightly more liberal one, then perhaps they will introduce some legislation that benefits me". Or, does he contact colleagues and take direct action against the employer that is exploiting him?

You might say this is pie-in-the-sky or whatever, but it is what thousands and thousands of people are doing every day, in an environment that is entirely seperate from the hedging nonsense of representative politics.

This is why I will vote for trade unionists ahead of full-time politicians, even if they do have a short-sighted platform. But, ultimately, the question is not one of voting in the first place. It is a question of action within our everyday environments.

Fine, fair points all. Is it not a seperate issue, though? Looking at Britain, I'm all in favour of trade unions, but come on, we're not going to have citizen's councils deciding legislation, we're going to have a Conservative government deciding it, and unless the country goes Poll Tax-Riot on Cameron's ass, then it's grin-and-bear-it time. You call representative politics hedging nonsense, and a lot of the time it is, but without revolution it's the system we have. I don't agree that working within the system is as useless as you think it is.



Such as? Come on, convince me here. And I disagree with that 'realpolitik' tag, btw.

Okay, what is it that I have to convince you of?

Political change not enacted at the ballot box. Are you seriously going to start saying slavery and civil rights and stuff?

So is it your opinion that there is no way to change anything and we should just be happy with what we get, because it could be worse?

alternately, are you of the opinion that the generally apathetic stance of the public towards atrocities committed in the name of continuing our way of life is due to
A) apathy
B) ignorance
or C) amorality?

I think we're looking at this from different perspectives... Depends what we think needs changing, really. Short of armed revolution, though, the changes that I think you're speaking of will never come.

The public is apathetic, yes, due to A and a bit of B in small doses, but what atrocities are you speaking of, exactly?

baby steps.

What do you think is required to maintain the standard first-world way of living?

This is ridiculous/you're trolling. Atrocities pls. And remember I voted Green.

I'm asking you questions. Questions are trolling... how?

example: Agricultural subsidies. Developed first-world nations/collectivizations of nations (The EU/the USA/etc) give large government checks to farm-workers who grow certain things (corn in America is subject to a multitude of subsidies) and this allows the farm-workers to sell their crops for less than it costs to grow said crops and still turn a profit. Agricultural companies like ConAgra in the U.S. buy huge portions of the industrial corn and process it into high-fructose corn syrup; other huge portions of the edible and industrial corn are exported overseas and drive down the price of corn.

The result of this is third-world agriculture being less and less profitable.

Then what comes into play is the 'race to the bottom,' ie the race of trans-national corporations to export production jobs to the places which require the least oversight and have the lowest standards or no standards of a minimum wage. Former farmers flock to these places because they represent the only place they can get a job.

want me to go on?

It is entirely true that our luxury is built off the exploitation of others... This is simply what to expect when the things we eat, use and wear are produced in environments we consciously try not to know about.

Back in Victorian times the factories in Britain made that suffering visible to all. Not so now, thanks to globalization.

of course we consciously try to not know about them! who among us could live with the fact that their actions directly support the starvation and exploitation of thousands upon thousands of people?

i am a terrible person and so is everyone else in western civilization with few exceptions by standards of general morality.

So, kill yourself. Or support a political party that takes steps to change the issues you're speaking of for the better.

Or how would you solve it?

how would killing myself contribute positively to anything? the fact that I am a net negative force does not change the fact that killing myself would convince approximately zero (0) people to change what they are doing.

the best thing to do is educate. speaking of which, do you want me to go on with globalization or is this stuff you already know?

Well, you could go Thích Quảng Đức on our asses. Who educate how in what? And yes, I am aware of globalisation's evils.

in all fairness, if I set myself on fire in a public place you'd see a lot less 'sitting calmly while burning to a crisp' and a lot more 'screaming and running around and flailing of the arms like a spastic shrimp'

...so if you're aware of globalization's evils, why were you objecting to me saying that atrocities are committed in the name of preserving the incredibly cushy lifestyle of the first world?

educate fucking everyone. I'm going to do something this summer that will probably help if I can ever figure out what kind of permits are necessary.

It's all very well saying that the west commits atrocities, but if you're unwilling to come up with a solution other than 'educate fucking everyone' what does it matter? Educate them to do what? What are you doing that other organisations aren't? Why not vote for the most progressive party and make it damn clear to local representatives that you expect something to be done! People like Rio cripple the left-wing vote in this country with their cynicism and then whine about a system that can't be changed, and it's infuriating, especially when people like me are then accused of being realpolitik or selling out values or whatever. I appreciate the struggle for workers' rights worldwide, but local and national and international government matters too, and it's that issue that this election was fought over, not bloody trade unions who weren't even going to take their seats if they won any. Considering that the extreme right is more likely to win votes than you, why on earth would you want to take votes from a party with similar values more likely to win? People are so fucking stupid.

So, anyone heard about the EU's plan to invite 60 million non-Europeans into Europe over the next few years? That's ten percent of Europe's current population. Europe MUST be destroyed!