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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:25 pm 
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Fridge, don't you see that you're being racist by your constant implications around here that Muslims are all Jihadist lunatics willing to blow themselves and everyone else up at the drop of a headscarf?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:28 pm 
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FrigidSymphony wrote:
rio wrote:
FrigidSymphony wrote:
Goat wrote:
ganeshaRules wrote:
Good people are good, bastards are bastards, believers or atheist.


Exactly.


But religion is among the only things that can turn good people in to bastards.


Exhibit A, by the way :P


'Scuse me?


A finer example of cluelessly blinkered atheism you couldn't ever wish to find.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:32 pm 
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Goat wrote:
Fridge, don't you see that you're being racist by your constant implications around here that Muslims are all Jihadist lunatics willing to blow themselves and everyone else up at the drop of a headscarf?


I'm not generalizing about muslim people, I am criticizing Islam for being a religion that is currently being particularly vicious. 40 people killed in riots over danish cartoons, Theo van Gogh murdered for making an anti-Islam video... I'm sorry if events like these could possibly lead me to disliking the religion of Islam.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:34 pm 
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Anyway, I was going to put this in Now Playing, but it is too lol for that.

Guess the band from the fragments of lyrical genius!:

Quote:
"Falling flat on my face
Up yours ya fukkin basket case
......
Nice cunt. Nice behind.
Groping about like a stupid kid.
Na na na na na na na
Bastards everywhere.
It's all I can see, I can't help but stare.
Talking crap and looking like a twat
......
Kids playing with broken glass
Kill themselves for a laff
......
Na na na na yeah yeah yeah
Na na na na yeah yeah yeah"


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:36 pm 
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Fuck off :lame: I'm trying to debate by a series of logical propositions and I get insulted because someone thinks my ideas are stupid.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:48 pm 
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Oh come on, this

Quote:
But religion is among the only things that can turn good people in to bastards.


Is hardly a logical proposition... in fact, I might go so far as to say it's actually kinda stupid. You never heard the phrase "power corrupts"?

How about these things, off the very, very tippy top of my head.

Money and the desire for it
Hunger
Sex
Ambition
Poverty
Ethno-centricity, (mr. proud to be Swiss :P )

No doubt there are many others... I'd pretty much bet my house that any of these things, on their own, without assistance from other factors, corrupt people far more than religion does in the vast majority of cases.

Anyway, this is the post count +1 thread so this discussion should move to politics or a new thread.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:52 pm 
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rio wrote:
Oh come on, this

Quote:
But religion is among the only things that can turn good people in to bastards.


Is hardly a logical proposition... in fact, I might go so far as to say it's actually kinda stupid. You never heard the phrase "power corrupts"?

How about these things, off the very, very tippy top of my head.

Money and the desire for it
Hunger
Sex
Ambition
Poverty
Ethno-centricity, (mr. proud to be Swiss :P )

No doubt there are many others... I'd pretty much bet my house that any of these things, on their own, without assistance from other factors, corrupt people far more than religion does in the vast majority of cases.

Anyway, this is the post count +1 thread so this discussion should move to politics or a new thread.


It was a reference to my earlier post asking for someone to specify what good deeds are done exclusively out of religious reasons (none) and what bad deeds are done exclusively out of religious reasons (many). The additional problem is that religion has a kind of "un-criticizable" status.


Maybe we should add a "debating" forum for formal debates.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:05 pm 
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FrigidSymphony wrote:
Goat wrote:
Fridge, don't you see that you're being racist by your constant implications around here that Muslims are all Jihadist lunatics willing to blow themselves and everyone else up at the drop of a headscarf?


I'm not generalizing about muslim people, I am criticizing Islam for being a religion that is currently being particularly vicious. 40 people killed in riots over danish cartoons, Theo van Gogh murdered for making an anti-Islam video... I'm sorry if events like these could possibly lead me to disliking the religion of Islam.


So according to your logic anti-Semetism is fine because Judaism advocates the bombing of Palestinians with white phosphorus? The actions of a few are not the actions of an entire people, obeying their violent religion. It's the few lone nutters.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:07 pm 
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FrigidSymphony wrote:
It was a reference to my earlier post asking for someone to specify what good deeds are done exclusively out of religious reasons (none) and what bad deeds are done exclusively out of religious reasons (many).


Oh, come on. There are plenty of religious charities that don't include dogmatising. You're simplifying a very complex thing - good deeds and bad deeds have more behind them than religion.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:09 pm 
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Goat wrote:
FrigidSymphony wrote:
Goat wrote:
Fridge, don't you see that you're being racist by your constant implications around here that Muslims are all Jihadist lunatics willing to blow themselves and everyone else up at the drop of a headscarf?


I'm not generalizing about muslim people, I am criticizing Islam for being a religion that is currently being particularly vicious. 40 people killed in riots over danish cartoons, Theo van Gogh murdered for making an anti-Islam video... I'm sorry if events like these could possibly lead me to disliking the religion of Islam.


So according to your logic anti-Semetism is fine because Judaism advocates the bombing of Palestinians with white phosphorus? The actions of a few are not the actions of an entire people, obeying their violent religion. It's the few lone nutters.


Anti semitism is tricky because you have to differentiate to people of Jewish faith and people who are ethnically jewish. Criticizing one has valid reasons, the other does not.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:18 pm 
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Goat wrote:
FrigidSymphony wrote:
It was a reference to my earlier post asking for someone to specify what good deeds are done exclusively out of religious reasons (none) and what bad deeds are done exclusively out of religious reasons (many).


Oh, come on. There are plenty of religious charities that don't include dogmatising. You're simplifying a very complex thing - good deeds and bad deeds have more behind them than religion.


Where does morality come from?
Anyway, I'm not saying that everything good with a religious name is linked to religious dogmatizing, as you say, but that religious charities don't need religion to exist. However, things like suicide bombing for gaining access to paradise are only possible because of religion. Religious beliefs change the way you behave and perceive your world. Imagine if you believed one of the following: "You have won 10 million pounds in the lottery", "the world is going to end tomorrow when a giant meteorite hits it" or "dying while killing people who do not share your faith will get you into heaven where you will be rewarded with 71 virgins". How would your behaviour change depending on whether you believed one of those propositions?
I guess my basic argument would be that the good caused by religion is not enough to compensate for the bad.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:46 pm 
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A really interesting book on this subject is Christopher Hill's "The World Turned Upside Down: Radical Ideas in the English Revolution". Hill was a Marxist of the mid-20th century, so I assume he was also an atheist although I'm not 100% sure.

He talks about how the entire social order of feudal England was predicated on the belief that the King was God's agent on earth, and divinely selected for his position. Around this concept, a repressive system develops, kept in place by religious elites who "interpret" the (Latin) bible and thus back up the King's claim in exchange for land and wealth.

So, religion here is the enemy: an oppressive intrument, right? No, religion is a concept that is used by the powerful to legitimate their own rule. King Charles doesn't hang onto power because he believes god wants him to. He says that god wants him to, in order to hang onto power. Why isn't this facade seen through? Because the only people that were, at the time, educated enough to realise that this "divine right" has no support in the bible are the priests, who are bonded to the king through power and money and land.

The biggest ballsup the ruling powers made was allowing the Bible to be translated into understandable English, so that ordinary people were able to interpret it for themselves. People start to realise that subservience is not the word of Jesus. As such, ALL of the unrest and questioning of that period that led to the English Revolution and the beginnings of parliamentary democracy were not based on seeing through religion: they were actually based on a more democratic and more authentic interpretation of the bible itself.

Gerrard Winstanley, IMO one of British history's greatest heroes, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerrard_Winstanley) couched everything he said and did politically in religious terms. He is an inspiration to atheists, because he was one of the very first people to question the literal truth of the bible, arguing that it should be viewed as metaphor. But, this doesn't change the fact that he saw the oppressive rule of Charles I as anti-Christian. In fact, many people of that period began to view the priesthood as a series of anti-christs.

The point of all of this is that in a great many cases religion is not the "cause" of a great number of things that it is supposed to be the cause of. The "cause" of the oppressive rule of the King was lust for power, not religion. Religion was simply a means of rationalising it. The rebellion against the King was not religious; it was a result of many, many social factors. But religion was again used as a tool to legitimate that rebellion.

What I'm trying to say is there are many things which are far more fundamental than religion in determining what happens in the world. Even the example of the Danishs cartoons. Dunno about the rest of the world, but in the UK there is a very strong perception amongst some sections of the Muslim community that they are marginalised in British society. Whether you agree that that's true or not is irrelevant. What matters is that this perception was far more fundamental to those protests. The fact that someone had drawn a cartoon was a legitimating tool rather than the real issue.

Eeesh long post I'd better stop now and get some work done.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:59 pm 
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Agreed on the feudal system.

As for the cartoons (as an example), sure, other factors may be taken into consideration, but why the hell does such violence erupt the minute these people feel their religion is being mocked or even criticized?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:26 pm 
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FrigidSymphony wrote:
Agreed on the feudal system.

As for the cartoons (as an example), sure, other factors may be taken into consideration, but why the hell does such violence erupt the minute these people feel their religion is being mocked or even criticized?


You're talking as if Muslims are the only people ever to riot. Which is wrong.

And suicide bombing was not invented by Islam, Fridge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_attack

From the Japanese to the Dutch to Nihilists to Muslims. It's a political tool, not a religious one.

Quote:
Beneath the religious rhetoric with which [such terror] is perpetrated, it occurs largely in the service of secular aims. Suicide terrorism is mainly a response to foreign occupation rather than a product of Islamic fundamentalism. ... Though it speaks of Americans as infidels, al-Qaida is less concerned with converting us to Islam than removing us from Arab and Muslim lands.[29]


So religion is misused by a few to brainwash people into carrying them out for political reasons.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:31 pm 
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Goat wrote:
FrigidSymphony wrote:
Agreed on the feudal system.

As for the cartoons (as an example), sure, other factors may be taken into consideration, but why the hell does such violence erupt the minute these people feel their religion is being mocked or even criticized?


You're talking as if Muslims are the only people ever to riot. Which is wrong.

And suicide bombing was not invented by Islam, Fridge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_attack

From the Japanese to the Dutch to Nihilists to Muslims. It's a political tool, not a religious one.

Quote:
Beneath the religious rhetoric with which [such terror] is perpetrated, it occurs largely in the service of secular aims. Suicide terrorism is mainly a response to foreign occupation rather than a product of Islamic fundamentalism. ... Though it speaks of Americans as infidels, al-Qaida is less concerned with converting us to Islam than removing us from Arab and Muslim lands.[29]


So religion is misused by a few to brainwash people into carrying them out for political reasons.


I never said anything contrary to that. I said that currently, Muslims seem more likely to carry out suicide bombings.

And yes, religion is a tool used to manipulate people. The problem is that the people who are being manipulated refuse to see this and will defend the integrity and ludicrous incoherence of the very thing that allows them to be manipulated.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 7:42 pm 
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hey guys

language is a tool used to manipulate people

discuss


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:04 pm 
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noodles wrote:
hey guys

language is a tool used to manipulate people

discuss
Patriarchal connotations?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:13 pm 
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noodles wrote:
hey guys

language is a tool used to manipulate people

discuss


Of course it is... terrorist/freedom fighter and all that jazz.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:51 pm 
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noodles wrote:
hey guys

language is a tool used to manipulate people

discuss


No... People are tools used to manipulate language.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:35 pm 
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tools are languages to people manipulate.

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