Metal Reviews

And those you listed are indeed luminous individuals, though Hendrix has always been a bit overrated, IMO..
But there are scores and scores upon scores of European artists, poets, writers and thinkers that are in the realm of genius.
The Gothic architecture of eastern Europe (for example) is nothing short of breathtaking, and that was built a long long time ago.
I don't dislike blacks, don't get me wrong, but I've had enough bad experiences with them to make me automatically wary.
And I don't think they are inferior, per se. I think they have bought into the "poor me" victim mentality too deeply.
The way I see it, they need to re-evaluate their whole way of thinking, as a whole. Speaking fluently and aspiring to success outside of being some sort of entertainer is not "selling out", it is being smart. In short, they need to get their collective shit together.
Growing up in Los Angeles from the early '70's to early '80's has shown me a lot. I've seen a lot of senseless viloence, and alot of it is racial.
Can you honestly say that blacks in this country are taking full advantage of the rights that their fathers and grandfathers struggled for?
NOTHING in this world is free, for most of us at least; you want something, ya gotta fight for it.

How can you guarantee this? It is one of those statements that ostensibly makes sense but in which there are holes, and those holes conceal quite important things.

I lived and worked for a whie in the US, at a labour rights organisation which was investigating a factory in the Deep South for allegations of union-busting, gender discrimination and racial discrimination. It seemed to me lto be likely that the first two accusations were an open and shut case, they were definitely there. In the case of the racial discrimination, it was not clear, but ultimately I did feel it was fair to say that racism there was a problem. The reason why I felt that way is, IMO, central to the whole problem of racial division in industrial democratic society.

The division of the factory was approximately as follows.

Shop floor entry level- about 80% black
Shop floor team leaders- 50% black
Middle management supervisors- 10% black
Senior management- 0% black

Now your position would possibly be that this is a reflection of the low work ethic and educational level of the blacks in the plant rather than a result of racism on the part of the managment in charge of promotions. Maybe some others might say that it was a result of direct racism, although hopefully people would investigate the situation further before making such accusations.

On the one hand, many of the black workers had extremely good performance records at the plant and had given it years of servicce. Some of them had gone out of their way to study for additional qulifications that would help them get promotions by studying in their own time. But they were passed over for jobs, almost always for white people, and frequently for people that didn't seem to be especially well qualified and in fact were reputed around the plant to be not doing an especially good job.

On the other hand, I personally did not get the impression that any of the managers at the plant were racists who wanted to keep black workers out of power.

So what is going on? What did seem to be fairly clear was that the plant was not a functioning meritocracy. The more controversial promotions could often be traced back to personal networks. i.e. they were friends with the managers, or they sent their kids to the same school, or they were from the same village, or went to the same church etc. IMO it is fair to say that at this plant at least (and I'd be willing to bet at many, many others) the employers were hiring based on personal connections, rather than who would make them the most money.

So what I am suggesting exists is not necessarily that there is a conspiracy to "keep the black man down" or whatever, but that the way that the economic and political system functions in the capitalist industrial democracies that we live in are inherently discriminatory towards those further down the economic ladder. This is partly because of the network-based recruitment policies in plants such as those I talked about above. HOwever it is also the case that those who begin with wealth will inevitably perpetuate the power structure that they have benefitted from, because they will be able to afford better education, they can spend more time with their kid, they can pay for out of school tuition, they live in better areas, there are less strains on them economically so families are less inclined to fracture and homes will be more stable, they can support them through university.

I don't think that there is anyone here that would argue that until the 1960s at least black people were artificially "kept down" by a white establishment, right? It is not that they in particular are discriminated against, but rather that they have been forced into in a position of subservience that is epically difficult to break out of. 50 years is not a long time at all when we are talking about inequalities of this magnitude. Only a couple of generations. My argument is that the very nature of the societies we live in, far from being the "meritocracies" they are hyped up as, contain inequalities that are self-maintaining, in the face of which 50 years is a puny amount of time.

I know you are suspicious of studies but there is plenty of academic research that demonstrates that our two countries hold the joint honour of having the lowest level of "social mobility" in the developed democratic world. This means that if you are born poor in the US or UK, you are very likely to stay poor. IMO this is a far more credible explanation for the situation of a lot of black people in the US than the one that there is a collective pathology there that renders them unable to be good parents and work hard. If for no other reason than that that is patently not true, judging by my own personal experience. All those things you would point to- gang culture etc- is a sympton rather than a cause. It no doubt helps to perpetuate it in many cases, but it is not the underlying structural problem.

Rio just owned V really, really hard.

Funny, I don't feel "owned"...

First of all, great post Rio. Extremely well put and well argued.



I just do have a quick question for V. Say the two jews you met had not seemed nice enough. Suppose that they were complete dicks, or say that they tried to pick a fight with you or rob you. Or say that you will meet some Amerindians tomorrow and that they will be complete douchebags. Would you then form assumptions about all jews and Amerindians? Because it seems like you're saying "I met two jews, they were nice, so I have no problem with jews! And I've never met any amerindians, so I have no comment on whether their entire race is bad or good." Want to clarify? Do you base your judgements of entire races on meeting a couple members of that race?


And returning to that election thing, did anyone else watch the debate? Both McCain and Obama pissed me off throughout the entire financial crisis part, never answering the question or responding to each other but always just dancing around everything and saying whatever bullshit came into their heads. They both got better during the foreign policy part, where I think Obama held his own and successfully rebutted McCain. I also think McCain, who tries so hard to be perceived as the "maverick" of politics, played the dick a bit too much last night: He had this smirk on his face the entire time whenever Obama talked, and kept on saying things like "Obama doesn't understand", which did make him seem condescending. And people do respond to that sort of thing- in the next debate, he needs to look more serious, look at Obama when he's talking to him (as opposed to the moderator) and attack Obama's arguments rather than Obama. On the other hand, McCain was well prepared, and while I agree with Obama on most points, I think the debate ended in a draw more than anything.

Thats all well and good, but it is one company, and you were here for how long? A month or two or three?
I've lived here my entire life.
Explain to me why in black culture than, if you are dressed normally, speak in english and not ebonics, aspire to success, stay at home with your family, you "ain't keepin' it real".
I can cite valid scientific studies that show blacks have an average IQ of around 80. I can cite studies where it shows conclusively that even blacks in a good home environment, middle class neighborhood, etc, still score significantly lower than thier white counterparts. I can cite a lot of studies that you would not particularly like much.

You say "they were passed over by white people". Were the white people more qualified? If they know the person doing the hiring, that is ALWAYS a big advantage.
And in this country WHITE PEOPLE are passed over by "minorities" all the time. It's called affirmitive action.
You said the blacks were taking courses; did they complete the course with good grades? Was the completion coincidental with the time frame that the position needed to be filled? And a training course does not guarantee a position, you know. There are a lot of mitigating factors, and maybe the plant was racist; that does not mean that it is widespread practice.
Also, a good job performance on a shop floor does not qualify one for management positions; that normally REQUIRES a four year college degree.
WTF? I can't just apply for upper management positions because I performed a low level floor job well and took a course.
I've taken at least five training courses at my job, but I am still doing the same thing I was doing two years ago... why? Because that is where I am needed and there are not any openings at the time.
My company is around 15% white (it is a high tech server test and repair company), the rest is Asian with maybe two blacks and one Mexican. Are they racist? The owners are Asian.

Also, keep in mind that blacks make up a little more than 10% percent of the population here; how much are they SUPPOSED to be represented?

And, also, you talk about racism? Whites in this country are probably the most tolerant of other races of all; Asians cannot stand blacks, Mexicans: the same, and blacks are racist against whites, so it is not as if racsm is a strictly white monopoly. The majority here (for now) is whites. America is a traditionally white country, so of course, whites are going to be the ones in positions of power.
Why is multiculturism ONLY encouraged in WHITE countries? You never hear anybody say Haiti is too black, or Kenya is too black.
Why is this?
Even on a corporate level, "diversity" means more minorities... you will NEVER hear black owned and run businesses be told they need to diversify, same with Asian, Mexican, etc. owned businesses.

What about the NBA? significantly black, but why do they not recruit more whites?

What about Haiti, Africa, and any inner city that once was inhabitable?

I'll bet you $1M that if all blacks left Africa and was subsequently inhabited by whites, Asians, etc. from America, within 20 years, it would see a significant turnaround.
Conversesly, if all whites , asians, etc. left America and settled in Africa and all the blacks inherited her infrastrucure, it would be one big Detroit in that same time span.
As for the underlying structural problem... I ain't buying it.
gang-culture is not a new phenomenom. The whole po', po', me perpetual victim mentality is for losers, and will continue to assure a life of squalor.

This country isn't nearly as racist towards blacks as you would seem to think.

No. Go back and read it again.
I grew up in the mean streets of LA, the schools and neighborhoods I lived in were close to 50% (well, maybe not 50% , probably closer to 35% -40%) black. It was not "just a couple" of people.
What about you? Do you live in a lily-white community?
Going to the Big U?
Upper middle class, and all that?

As for the bit about the Jews... obviously I haven't stated any opinion on them as a group, based on limited experience; so why do you assume that I would based one off of a limited negative experience ?

I saw some of it. Obama seemed to interupt a lot.
Meh... expect more of the same, regardless of who the next occupant of the White House is.
The marionette is merely switching puppets, that's all.

No. My neighbourhood is about half francophone and half non-white, including many Haitian immigrants and black people. Montreal in general is an extremely diverse city. I won't pretend that my family is poor- we are middle class- still, our neighbourhood, as especially the subway station right near us, is considered "dangerous". And despite the presence of black gangs (along with, say, white gangs... gasp!) I have made friends who are black, worked with black people, gone to school with them. I have no doubt that the areas of LA where you're from have a lot more crime and gangs then the area where I'm from (Montreal in general is a pretty low crime city)- nonetheless, I don't judge an entire race just because I happened to be beat up and robbed by a black gang, just like I don't condemn all whites because some of them happen to be part of the Hells Angels. Anyway, Rio has said everything much better than I ever could.

Though my question still stands. You worded it like this: "I met two jews, they were nice, therefore jews are okay in my book. I haven't met any amerindians, so I can't judge them." Do you judge entire races based on your personal experience with members of that race?

I never said "all jews are ok" or all blacks are bad.
Where did I state that?
Getting beat up by a black gang?
Wrong. Look at the big picture. It goes much deeper than my personal experinces.
I don't know what it's like in Montreal, so I will not state anything one way or the other.
It's very amusing how everybody gets their panties in a bunch over my proclamation, but when Rio and Zad say that they hate most women and have met few that deserve respect, nobody bats an eyelash.
So the only opinions that are valid are ones that YOU agree with, right?
Youv'e made a few black friends, so all the rest of the arguments I cited are invalid? Irony, much?

I've answered the question, now show me how blacks are equal to whites and Asians.

Heh, might be worth mentioning that Rio was clearly joking there.

Dopubtful.
Zad stated clearly that sexism is fine , and I've seen the sentiment arise here anyway.

At any rate it doesn't matter; he fact is nobody knew he was joking, it wasn't publicly stated; and still nobody said shit about it.

Why can't some people here just accept the fact that not everybody sees things they way they do?
I mean for fuck sake, how fucking arrogant to believe that just because YOU have not observed the same things that I have, I must be wrong and need to explain myself.
I don't declare that Rio, Zad and Brahm are WRONG, even though they have grilled me on this.
And I still await somebody to definitively refute my claim.
Do I think blacks should be treated differently? No.
Do I think they should be discriminated against? No.
Do I think that segregation should be brought back? No.
I merely stated that I see little evidence as a whole, whether it be Africa, Haiti or America, that they are on the same level as whites and asians.
Why? I don't really know, but that is not the issue.
My own personal experience only verifies what I have observed in general.

First of all, I didn't see Rio and Zad's posts where they say that they hate most women. If they did say that, then that is dumb as shit.

And once again, your observations are all personal. You've seen lots of black crime, you've seen very few smart and successful black people, therefore the entire race is inferior. Well, if thats your argument, then I can fight fire with fire. But my point isn't to argue that just because I've known smart and great black people that the entire race is great. My point is that generalizations are dumb as fuck, and that it is idiotic to attribute a characteristic to an entire group of people, whether it be women or blacks or whatever.

And my question still stands. When Zad asked you what you thought of Jews and Amerindians, your response was to automatically reach out to your own personal experience. "I met two jews and they seemed nice enough." "I haven't met any Amerindians, so I have no opinion." Most of your arguments are just that (the constant "I've grown up in LA") or extreme oversimplification of complex issues (ie, the lack of prosperity in Africa).

As for IQ evidence- the IQ system is one of the most heavily attacked methods of gauging intelligence. Its also rather amusing that most of the funding for IQ tests that show great disparity in intelligence between races comes from the Pioneer Fund, a group that has had ties to the Nazis and particularly to eugenics. Hmm.

Fuck all that noise.
I answered the question(s) repeatedly.
Now answer mine.
How have blacks shown that they are equal to whites and asians?

Well, see V, thats a tricksy question. This black guy next door who has a nice family- he seems like a much smarter and nicer guy than this Asian person I knew who was a bit of an asshole and not too bright. Then there are all these white idiots I meet. I think the government of Madagascar has done a much better job recently of running its country than Thailand's or North Korea's. On the other hand, there's this other black guy I know who's not too bright, and I have this white friend who is really quite smart... and this Asian guy who's pretty clever. But then there was my black co-worker who was more hard working then everyone in the store, and who had worked as a chemist before deciding to go into semi-retirement and start working at a bookstore for fun- while this white co-worker of mine, oh boy! He's a swell guy, but kind of a slacker.

Wow, judging entire races sure is hard! So my answer is maybe.

Come on, man, you know what I am talking about.
I am not saying that peole should be judged by their ethnicity, that, I agree with you is wrong.
Lotta white assholes, yep, no arguement there, and hey some of us even commit crimes... no question.

I am talking about the vastly disproportionate rate of crime, poverty and illiteracy between the races.
I am talking about a 70%+ rate of children (oftentimes multiple) children being abandoned by the father.
I am talking about contributions to civilisation, as a whole.
I am talking about self sustenance, and self determination.
I am talking about doing things that are not immediately gratifying in favor of benefitting things in the long run.

I have no doubt you consider that I harbor "racist" views, but I don't consider Asians, Mexicans, and nope, not even Jews to be anything other than people like me that are only trying to carve out a piece of the pie. So before you jump to that conclusion, perhaps you should consider that maybe, just maybe I have a valid point.
I base my assertions regarding blacks on viable facts, coinciding with my own personal experience.

And I STILL have yet to see any refutation of the assertions I have made.

I honestly can't imagine any way in which my post could more obviously have been a joke.

As it happens, I have been working the last four months at a feminist organisation, so if anything I am more sensitive about gender discrimination.

Don't even get me started on patriarchy... Like, the biggest problem in the entire world, bigger than racism and most other isms put together.

Ok there is a lot here so let me go through bit by bit.



Not long at all, about three months. However the UK has the same issues, the same concerns about "black culture", the same concerns about underrepresentation at work etc. The points I make are just as informed by this country, because in many ways our issues are the same.



How commonplace is this attitude? Sounds like caricatures and stereotypes to me... I'm sure some people do have it, and it does cause problems. But it doesn't apply to any black person I have ever met, only the ones I have seen in music videos. But, like I said in my last post, in my view it is a symptom, rather than the cause in itself. When there is such a large disparity at work in society, the problem is surely to do with the mechanics of that society, rather than attitudes held by individuals in it.



Well, I am not a cognitive psychologist so I wouldn't be in a position to refute those studies anyway. The black people I have met have pretty much all had an IQ of way above 80, so all I can say is that the findings of these studies don't ring true to me. I study the social sciences so this is where I look for my explanations of things.


Well, this is all bound up in the point I am making. I don't believe the managers at the plant were racist. In fact, I hardly ever accuse anyone of racism except in very extreme circumstances. I believe that there were other factors at work that perpetuated racial division, rather than the conscious actions of either the white or black workers. One of these factors was the "personal network" system of recruitment. I mean, you said yourself that knowing the boss is a huge plus point, right?

You're asking quite a lot of specific questions about the case: As far as I can remember, in one of the key cases we looked at, the black woman passed over for a white man (part of the manager's extended family, allegedly) had taken a course well in advance of the position coming free, which she had passed (I don't know with what grade, I think it was just a pass/fail thing) She had also undertaken a lot of on the job training for it, and had also already done a lot of the responsibilities on an informal basis. What was particularly striking about a few cases was that newly appointed white supervisors were trained on the job by the black people they were brought in to supervise.

I saw copies of job vacancy desriptions for senior management positions. They certainly don't require four year college degrees. They required relevant experience and a record of service to the company. Something that is universally valued far more than paper qualifications anywhere you go.

The bottom line in this case is that I don't believe for a second that the managers at the plant were racist. HOwever, I do believe that racial divisions were perpetuated at the plant because of the elitist nature of the managerial staff. They appointed people they knew, and the people they knew came from their own white neighbourhoods.

Now, you very correctly point out that we can't generalise about the whole of society based on this one plant. However, personally I believe that the case does provide a useful model for explaining why black people may be behind whites in the world of work. Which is more likely? That the problems I have talked about are more common than you think, or that blacks are just inferior? IMO, when we factor in what we know, i.e. that it is far easier to climb the ladder when you begin higher up it, it leads me strongly towards the former explanation. The case gave me a detailed view of how the problems I talk about on a macro-scale actually play out at the micro-level.

Also, I am extremely sceptical that affirmative action happens "all the time". I'd be amazed if it happens to anything like the extent that the situation I describe does.



Well, in this case they were about 80% of the plant's workforce, so they were clearly underrepresented at the managerial level.



This is all as may be, but as much as you may dislike me saying this, it is my sincerely held belief that racism on the part of the "dominant group" towards minority groups is more damaging and more of a problem that vice versa. The nine people in a room disliking the tenth are likely to do worse things than the tenth person in a room disliking the other nine. Unless the tenth is Michael Myers.




What about them? You mean, why don't Kenyan businesses actively seek to promote white people? Well, they always used to, of course...



Of course gang-culture is not new, but then inequality is not new, is it? The structures I talk about are certainly not new. They are less obvious, sure... You will, however, find that violent crime always increases with inequality, whichever time period we are in.



Eeesh, come on, man, am I wasting my typing fingers?

a) drop the defensive "this country". I've already said that the problems are the same in the UK. The whole, "you don't live here you don't know" thing just doesn't cut it.
b) the entire point of the last god-knows-how-many-hundreds-of-words I've been typing is precisely that it is not just the blacks who are coming off badly. If you are born poor, it is likely that you will not catch up with people born above you. This can apply to anyone, but because black people had been kept in poverty by an actively racist system for centuries, a much larger proportion suffer from this than do whites.
c) You'll notice that at not one point have I ever singled out any American to describe as "racist".

I have seen it personally. And it is exhibited in the general attitude.
So, your experience with blacks is different than mine. Fair enough.
I disagree that it is a symptom and not a cause, in fact, I think it it just the opposite; if blacks as a whole adapted to the ways of success, they would succeed.
And I also disagree with the idea that disparity in society is neccesarilly the fault of society.
Asians come here and succeed. Society owes me, you or them nothing.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:IQ-4 ... ighres.png

This reflects the success rates of each group represented.



Perhaps, but that is more like nepotism, than racism, as you yourself said that the white was part of the mangers extended family.
At any rate, who trained the black supervisors on the job?
An incoming supervisor has to be trained by somebody, and I myself came on board the company I work at in a lead position. I was trained by somebody that was there three years prior to my being hired.
Thats often SOP.



I have NEVER seen any senior management position that does not require a four year degree.
NEVER.




Then, how is this germaine to the topic?
Appointing "people they knew" is not the same as racism.
And they still had to qualify, they just don't give senior management positions to any jerkoff on the street.
Of course management is elitist. This is a surprise?




Your opinions.
And they are valid, but I don't see it that way.
I am not saying that blacks are neccesarilly inferior, I am saying they culturally do not seem to value the idea that hard work and playing by the rules is the way to succeed.
That they are victims that are owed something from society, that because a very small amount of rich landowners in a few southern states a long long time ago owned slaves (Africa still practices slavery today, BTW), they have a special status here.
Nobody seems to complain about the NBA being predominantly black, do they? Why not?



Pardon my hyperbole.
Maybe not "all the time", but you gather my inference.
It happens enough.
Is that alright?
How about all the other myriad programs set up to "level the playing field"?
And you implicitly admit that you don't know the extent of it's occurence, so it's merely another supposition.



You could just as easily say they are over-represented in the company overall.



That dominant group should just give up their positions because ... why?
They built the organization.
Do the dominant groups in Mexico, China, Japan, etc. need to make concessions for minorities? Why should they?
In a situation where I am the minority, am I not going to be singled out as well? That is a human phenomenom, not a strictly racial one.

It seems that "diversity" is always urged at the expense of whites.
Screw that noise.



Of course, what?



You just made my point for me.




You misunderstood me.
A) The "this country" was not defensive. I am pointing out that I can not speak for how things are in say for instance the UK.
Let me pre-empt the next retort by saying I can speak of what is happening in africa and places like Haiti, because the dire situations there are common knowledge and are splashed all ove the early Sunday morning charity-a-thons.
B) Bollocks.
According to the US Census, 11.2% of American Whites and 29.0% of American Blacks lived in poverty in 1995. In 1995, there were 218.3 million American Whites and 33.1 million American Blacks, which shows (after multiplying by the respective percentages) that there were 24.4 million poor Whites and 9.5 million poor Blacks living in the United States that year.
Yet blacks are responsible for violent crime at a rate of more than 8 to 1 compared to whites. And keep in mind the FBI groups hispanics along with whites, for some reason.
C) Thank you. Why would you?

Rio's basically arguing my side here, but a few points:

1. Racism doesn't mean that you hate all races other than your own. That's fascism. Racism means having a downer on one or more specific races, for whatever reason , but it comes down to your opinion. That Valefor's questioning black involvement in music when the whole of Rock music has roots in the Blues etc shows that something's seriously off. John fucking Coltrane, hello?

2. I don't care how many gang members you've run into. As most of y'all probably know, my family converted to Orthodox Judaism when I was younger, and I have been treated differently for it by 'normal' white people, often to the point of such blatant racism that even Rob Darken would shake his head in disgust. Do I then take a look at how the British have raped the world throughout our history, look at our treatment of other peoples, look at events nowadays such as the treatment of Islamic immigrants in this country to the point that the shooting of non-whites is considered acceptable because they might have been terrorists, and conclude that the white race is irrevocably fucked and that it has done nothing to earn my respect? Of course not. I have been spat on in the street, kicked and punched - something that I'm willing to bet has never happened to Valefor - and several times had my life in danger, and yet I'm capable of acknowledging that some people are shit-ridden scum but they don't speak for the rest of their race.

3. "If blacks as a whole adapted to the ways of success..." Christ. Have you honestly not noticed that there's a black (or partially-black, if you must be anal) man running for POTUS? Do you not know that there are Asian gangs and criminals? Can you not see that whilst the NBA may be largely black, this is due to the fact that the only options a lot of young black men have is to excel at sports? Why is NASCAR full of white drivers (an assumption, please prove me wrong) ?

4. Sexism and racism are completely different things. The issue here is racism, not sexism.