The Old Politics Thread

Adam · **Posted:** Thu May 22, 2008 2:20 pm

Misha wrote:

Adam wrote:

To your first point, obviously our government spending needs to be addressed, but that's a whole different bag of shit. If the circumstances were set up right, I would be all in favor of UH. If gov't spending were curbed first, which would reduce and/or eliminate the US national debt, then I might be in favor of it. As it is, it would be hard to "shuffle" anything, being that were somewhere around 10 TRILLION dollars in debt. I mean, what's the point of going through the hassle if it would just be a lateral move cost wise, which it sounds like it would be, for people like me. Someday, hopefully, we can unscrew our economy and then we can seriously think about instituting UH.

Also, I didn't mean to imply that European countries who have UH have poor healthcare. Actually, I've read that they have very good providers. What I'm saying is that a lot of doctors/surgeons who practice in the US come from other countries because they can make more $$$ here. If we have to reduce how much they're paid by putting in UH, then I would think some might leave and not as many would come here to practice, which definitely could have a negative effect on the quality of our healthcare. That's all I was getting at.

Of course we can agree to disagree

, I enjoy the discussion in fact. You've made some valid points.

I think the problem with the high costs of healthcare is also insurance. Not for the people, but for the doctors themselves. If the hospital makes a mistake in the states, people will sue them and they will have to pay ridiculous amounts of money. I heard gp's have to pay big money for insurance on this. In europe, we don't have such a lawsystem that allows millions of compensation for a mistake.

Many people may be jobless with such a rigorous change in policy, but be sure to note that it's cheaper to just give people money because they are jobless than to have them occupying positions that are not necessary. This is a fake form of work and it will not stimulate the economy because the other people pay for a hollow service. Just like war, it's a thing that can be superficially good for the economy, but in the end will express itself in taxes that take away buying potential or state depts.

Agreed on all points. Our FUBAR'd economy is just not ready for it right now. Maybe I should just move to Europe.

Caligula_K · **Joined:** Mon Nov 22, 2004 8:56 pm **Posts:** 3561

FrigidSymphony wrote:

Shame on you, Obama, shame on you. American politics suck.

What'd he do?

Adam · **Posted:** Thu May 22, 2008 8:35 pm

Brahm_K wrote:

FrigidSymphony wrote:

Shame on you, Obama, shame on you. American politics suck.

What'd he do?

Apparently, promoting the fact that you are a Christian to defend yourself against the false accusation that you are a radical Muslim is shameful in Fridge's mind.

The last sentence of his post couldn't be more true, however.

rio · **Posted:** Fri May 23, 2008 8:20 am

Zad wrote:

rio wrote:

Labour can fuck off, I will never vote for them again while the current setuip persists. The tories can get in: It's better to have a principled party in opposition rather than an unprincipled on in power.

Wat. Did you not read the news the past few days? The Conservatives were quite prepared to bugger the abortion limit up based on nothing other than the say-so of a few Catholics. I'm not happy with Labour either, but it's the lesser of two evils.

Notice how the basis upon which labour can be classed as the lesser of those two evils is getting thinner and thinner... It used to be "hey at least they might do something about poverty"... now the last straws people cling to is that the Tories might fiddle with the abortion time limit.

Nope, better to have a principled party in opposition than an unprincipled one that people desperately cling to as the lesser of two evils.

Cú Chulainn · **Posted:** Fri May 23, 2008 9:41 am

Adam wrote:

Brahm_K wrote:

FrigidSymphony wrote:

Shame on you, Obama, shame on you. American politics suck.

What'd he do?

Apparently, promoting the fact that you are a Christian to defend yourself against the false accusation that you are a radical Muslim is shameful in Fridge's mind.

The last sentence of his post couldn't be more true, however.

Using the "I have a strong christian faith" to get votes instead of having better ideas on the debating points is shameful to my mind.

Goat · **Posted:** Fri May 23, 2008 9:53 am

rio wrote:

Notice how the basis upon which labour can be classed as the lesser of those two evils is getting thinner and thinner... It used to be "hey at least they might do something about poverty"... now the last straws people cling to is that the Tories might fiddle with the abortion time limit.

Nope, better to have a principled party in opposition than an unprincipled one that people desperately cling to as the lesser of two evils.

I disagree. Labour aren't going to start eroding things like that, the Tories are in the name of family values and all that jazz. Until the day that Gordon Brown actually stands up and says, 'fuck the working class', then Labour will be the lesser of two evils. All very well imagining that people will rally round Labour again once they realise what a fuckup has been made, but what damage will be done in the meantime by the Tories?

Having said that, I can't see Labour winning the next election. The Tories are winning practically every battle they fight... if nothing else, we'll have some good music in the next few years.

Edit: I hope you're not implying that you'd actually vote Conservative, for if so, your Lefty rating has just dropped like a stone.

Adam · **Posted:** Fri May 23, 2008 3:53 pm

FrigidSymphony wrote:

Adam wrote:

Brahm_K wrote:

FrigidSymphony wrote:

Shame on you, Obama, shame on you. American politics suck.

What'd he do?

Apparently, promoting the fact that you are a Christian to defend yourself against the false accusation that you are a radical Muslim is shameful in Fridge's mind.

The last sentence of his post couldn't be more true, however.

Using the "I have a strong christian faith" to get votes instead of having better ideas on the debating points is shameful to my mind.

Shameful, perhaps, but necessary in the climate of mudslinging and out and out bullshit that is US politics. It's getting to the point where voters don't pay as much attention to the issues at hand as they do to the "talking heads" and attack ads that are mostly full of shit.

Any presidential candidate who ran their campaign strictly on the issues and didn't respond to negative ads would get CREAMED in the election. Sad, but true.

rio · **Posted:** Fri May 23, 2008 6:53 pm

Zad wrote:

rio wrote:

Notice how the basis upon which labour can be classed as the lesser of those two evils is getting thinner and thinner... It used to be "hey at least they might do something about poverty"... now the last straws people cling to is that the Tories might fiddle with the abortion time limit.

Nope, better to have a principled party in opposition than an unprincipled one that people desperately cling to as the lesser of two evils.

I disagree. Labour aren't going to start eroding things like that, the Tories are in the name of family values and all that jazz. Until the day that Gordon Brown actually stands up and says, 'fuck the working class', then Labour will be the lesser of two evils. All very well imagining that people will rally round Labour again once they realise what a fuckup has been made, but what damage will be done in the meantime by the Tories?

Having said that, I can't see Labour winning the next election. The Tories are winning practically every battle they fight... if nothing else, we'll have some good music in the next few years.

Edit: I hope you're not implying that you'd actually vote Conservative, for if so, your Lefty rating has just dropped like a stone.

No, I'm saying I will vote for a party that has principles. That means the greens, or alternatively whoever the SWP may be tangled up with at the time of the next election. Dear god I despise the Tory party intensely and would never vote for them. In terms of actions New Labour have already said "fuck the working class" a long time ago... in fact I'd be surprised if Tony Blair hasn't literally said it at least a few times in private to Cherie.

Labour are elitist technocrats that no genuine left-winger could now support unless they return to their roots. Pseudo-left liberals like Nick Cohen can vote for them, but it's their "lefty rating" that is plummeting, not mine.

The right to abortion is important, but it is by no means a defining trait of the left. Plenty of right-wingers support full abortion rights and quite a few left-wingers oppose them (Galloway, for example). All these Guardian columnists that are on about how the abortion law "represents the real difference that remains between labour and the tories" are talking rubbish.

We need proportional representation, imo. I am sick of having a worthless vote...

Goat · **Posted:** Wed May 28, 2008 3:53 pm

Charlie sums my feelings up pretty well:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008 ... idmiliband

I wish the Greens would get their arses into gear where I am. We just have LD's, who seem better than Labour, but have about as much chance of getting in as a BNP candidate in my area (Poles, Jews, and Asians).

Heh, always knew Galloway was a wrong 'un.

Speedyjx · **Posted:** Wed May 28, 2008 4:21 pm

So.. some guy from the Guardian now wants to write for the Daily Mail?

All I read was the usual complaints and fearmongering that both papers are notorious for. I mean come on, you're hardwired to vote for a political party? I call bullshit on that.

rio · **Posted:** Thu May 29, 2008 8:58 am

Zad wrote:

Charlie sums my feelings up pretty well:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008 ... idmiliband

I wish the Greens would get their arses into gear where I am. We just have LD's, who seem better than Labour, but have about as much chance of getting in as a BNP candidate in my area (Poles, Jews, and Asians).

Heh, always knew Galloway was a wrong 'un.

Charlie Brooker is nearly always right, although for this article he seemed to have detatched himself from the blindingly obvious a bit... Clearly finding Labour revolting doesn't make you right-wing, because as Monbiot says, "this is Britain's most right wing government since WWII".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... columnists

People who say "at least they are better than the tories" are totally missing the point, because they completely ignore the fact that unless they get what's coming to them, they will keep going in that direction. They need a humiliation. I believed they were the lesser of two evils back in 2005, so I voted for them. But now I have egg on my face, because they just took that as a mandate to carry on as they were. Now they are a worthless party that deserves to lose miserably.

Goat · **Posted:** Thu May 29, 2008 11:15 am

I can see your points, but you seem to be avoiding the fact that not voting for Labour will inevitably mean a Conservative government. Now, as much as I genuinely dislike Labour and want to see them hurt, is it really worth it? It's all very well voting for Greens or whoever, but sadly our system became a two-party one a loooong time ago. I agree with what you're saying, and Monbiot who always seems to have his head screwed on right. It's just this deep feeling of unease I get at the thought of a Tory government... Looks like the next gen. election won't be until 2010, so I'll have plenty of time to decide!

Speedyjx wrote:

All I read was the usual complaints and fearmongering that both papers are notorious for. I mean come on, you're hardwired to vote for a political party? I call bullshit on that.

Well you know what he means, people generally decide around 18 what party they vote for, and then stick to it. Obviously people change, but if you come from a certain background, then clearly you're going to be groomed to vote for a certain party.

Speedyjx · **Posted:** Thu May 29, 2008 1:12 pm

If people who've always voted Labour decide to change sides, chances are that it wouldn't be for the Tories, so I have my doubts about them winning by a lot, if at all. The most likely scenario would be a minority government or a really weak coalition, so regardless of the outcome we'd be up shit creek. Just like Scotland are heading into under the tyrant in the making.

And I know what you're saying, however that doesn't make it true. I'm from a Labour stronghold, that doesn't mean that there aren't people voting for any of the other parties. The fact that we're under an SNP council sort of shows my point.

PS. I fucking HATE the SNP with a passion.

Goat · **Posted:** Thu May 29, 2008 2:32 pm

I wouldn't underestimate Cameron. Give him his dues, he's a clever man who's suceeding in undemonising the Tories. Let's hope he isn't completely successful.

On a side note, it's things like this that I love the Guardian for:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... obama.cuba

What other paper would publish something by Fidel? Interesting points he raises, although he's hardly pure as the driven snow himself.

Metalhead_Bastard · **Posted:** Thu May 29, 2008 2:59 pm

I'm sick of the fact that 90% percent of the people my age (well, 18) want to vote BNP. I think we all know about how I feel about immigration but the BNP is just fucked up pure racism.

:mad:

Mintrude · **Posted:** Thu May 29, 2008 3:00 pm

Metalhead_Bastard wrote:

I'm sick of the fact that 90% percent of the people my age (well, 18) want to vote BNP. I think we all know about how I feel about immigration but the BNP is just fucked up pure racism.

:mad:

Bloody hell, that many? I heard teenagers were getting more conservative, but fuck me!

Metalhead_Bastard · **Posted:** Thu May 29, 2008 3:02 pm

Mintrude wrote:

Metalhead_Bastard wrote:

I'm sick of the fact that 90% percent of the people my age (well, 18) want to vote BNP. I think we all know about how I feel about immigration but the BNP is just fucked up pure racism.

:mad:

Bloody hell, that many? I heard teenagers were getting more conservative, but fuck me!

I do live in North West England in a predominantly white area to be fair. Cheshire has the highest BNP following in the UK, I'm just so sad to see it in my generation.

Mintrude · **Posted:** Thu May 29, 2008 3:27 pm

Metalhead_Bastard wrote:

Mintrude wrote:

Metalhead_Bastard wrote:

I'm sick of the fact that 90% percent of the people my age (well, 18) want to vote BNP. I think we all know about how I feel about immigration but the BNP is just fucked up pure racism.

:mad:

Bloody hell, that many? I heard teenagers were getting more conservative, but fuck me!

I do live in North West England in a predominantly white area to be fair. Cheshire has the highest BNP following in the UK, I'm just so sad to see it in my generation.

Rather humourously, we got a leaflet from the BNP blaming you English for all our problems. Very weird.

Metalhead_Bastard · **Posted:** Thu May 29, 2008 3:28 pm

Mintrude wrote:

Metalhead_Bastard wrote:

Mintrude wrote:

Metalhead_Bastard wrote:

I'm sick of the fact that 90% percent of the people my age (well, 18) want to vote BNP. I think we all know about how I feel about immigration but the BNP is just fucked up pure racism.

:mad:

Bloody hell, that many? I heard teenagers were getting more conservative, but fuck me!

I do live in North West England in a predominantly white area to be fair. Cheshire has the highest BNP following in the UK, I'm just so sad to see it in my generation.

Rather humourously, we got a leaflet from the BNP blaming you English for all our problems. Very weird.

They're complete retards, although I did wake up once morning to see a leaflet that had posted saying something like "IT'S TIME TO MAKE THE NIGGERS LEAVE" or something like that. How the FUCK are they an actual party?

rio · **Posted:** Thu May 29, 2008 10:17 pm

Zad wrote:

I can see your points, but you seem to be avoiding the fact that not voting for Labour will inevitably mean a Conservative government. Now, as much as I genuinely dislike Labour and want to see them hurt, is it really worth it? It's all very well voting for Greens or whoever, but sadly our system became a two-party one a loooong time ago. I agree with what you're saying, and Monbiot who always seems to have his head screwed on right. It's just this deep feeling of unease I get at the thought of a Tory government... Looks like the next gen. election won't be until 2010, so I'll have plenty of time to decide!

Speedyjx wrote:

All I read was the usual complaints and fearmongering that both papers are notorious for. I mean come on, you're hardwired to vote for a political party? I call bullshit on that.

Well you know what he means, people generally decide around 18 what party they vote for, and then stick to it. Obviously people change, but if you come from a certain background, then clearly you're going to be groomed to vote for a certain party.

I'm not avoiding that fact. Like I said, I'd rather have a principled Labour party in opposition than an unprincipled one in government. The fact you are ignoring, IMO is that whilst sure, the Tories would be worse than this government, if Labour gets in in 2010, THEY will be worse than this government, as well. You have to think long term, and send a message that Britain needs a mainstream leftwing party. Even if that means getting a Tory term.

Of course, there are flaws in this strategy- mainly the possibility that the current crop of New labour politicians will be too fucking stupid to realise what they need to do.

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