Bruce Dickinson talks about piracy (mp3 trading)

Metalhed · **Joined:** Fri Jul 21, 2006 5:37 pm **Posts:** 20

From a small record label:

http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/prog ... ey-do.html

An interesting first hand account. In the US, it is illegal, so there is no ambiguity for me.

Metalhed · **Joined:** Fri Jul 21, 2006 5:37 pm **Posts:** 20

Brahm_K wrote:

http://www.unc.edu/~cigar/papers/FileSh ... ch2004.pdf

BTW - thanks for the link. I will read through it - I am very interested in this topic...

Adveser · **Joined:** Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:26 am **Posts:** 2491

The Evil Dead wrote:

Adveser wrote:

That is what pisses people off right there. I enjoy downloading, but what you do is not doing the right thing whatsoever. You are ripping CoB off because you are obviously enjoying their work and simply don't pay for it.

I forgot I own 4 CoB albums and 2 T Shirts, and I'm going to be paying to see them live at Gigantour in April.

Surprisingly enough, the downloaded material lead me into being a fan and... This may be a shock... Buying their albums and merch in support.

Hope that makes you feel better.

Yeah me too. I downloaded about 6 of their songs years ago and was hooked. Your first response seemed to say that despite downloading all their material that they were doing well. It didn't make a lot of sense is what I mean.

for the record, bying merch and tickets is good and all but doesn't give anyone liscence to download the albums for free.

Like he said, It is a matter of respect to buy albums that you like a great deal.

Adveser · **Joined:** Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:26 am **Posts:** 2491

Metalhed wrote:

First off, I can't believe anyone is taking Gene or Bruce seriously. These are two of the last guys I would take advice from on anything...

Bands like Maiden and KISS are not the ones affected by the downloading - it's the smaller bands that will ultimately pay the price. The smaller record companies that bring you alot of the metal you listen to - examples: Katagory V, Brainstorm, Pyramaze - will find it very hard to stay in business when illegal downloading takes sales away. Downloading may turn some new users on to the music, but there are always those that download without purchasing it and that is a lost sale for the record company.

It is smaller companies that sign many of the good quality metal we listen to today, and they will find it hard to stay in business, as they will not be able to afford signing smaller bands. In turn that means less metal music for us.

Also, while bands like Maiden make a lot of money touring, most of the smaller bands don't. Merchandising for them is also a very small amount of income. If they are going to continue to make music, they need to rely on the smaller record companies funding them to record.

Gene is right - downloading is illegal - there is no way to justify it. You have stolen music from the artist that you have not paid for. If you want to sample the music, you have many options now - MySpace and band websites for one. Alot of online record shops (The End Records, CDUniverse, Amazon for example) all offer streams of many albums now. You can listen online before making a choice to purchase. I agree $18 is alot to pay for a crap CD, but downloading it illegally (without paying for the download) is not a legal way to sample.

Unless smaller record labels can find another way to make money off of downloading, we may find that we have far fewer choices for metal other than the crap the major lables throw at us...

I have stated many times before. Myspace sounds like shit. Bands bitch about the quality of downloaded albums but use myspace at the same time? How hypocritical. Myspace is much worse than anything you can download. 22.05 khz 80mbps mono files are shit quality any way you slice it. I refuse to listen to anything using myspace. If you go my page you'll see that there are websites that will host files of great quality that can easily be embedded, they need to use those sites instead of myspace's player if they want quality.

Downloading is not really the problem for the smaller labels. They refuse to promote albums any more. They have gotten complacent as it gets. SPV isn't like that, but Nuclear Blast certainly is and especially Metal Blade. Fans have proven they will buy a quality record, which is why Dream Theater are still selling 100,000 copies.

I don't care what is legal and what isn't really, that makes no difference. I can feel good about the way I use downloading because it inspires me to spend money on music that I otherwise wouldn't have.

I'm not gonna buy into bands selectively marketing what they want you to hear. That is nonsense. Two good songs don't justify a CD purchase.

Pasqua · **Posted:** Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:46 pm

Oh my god you guys, you have to check this.

So I was debating in another forum about this same subject with this guy who happens to be a music producer, and an enthusiast basher on mp3 sharing.

I explained to him the concept of increased competitivity and democracy that comes with mp3 sharing (like Bruce said). It's not that hard to figure, more and more bands will get the chance to get heard and the days of millions of people liking the same thing are pretty much gone.

So I used hypothetical numbers, to get him to understand my point. I said "imagine a band 10 years ago who happens to have 1 million fans. Well, now it's like these 1 million people are split among 20 bands, each having 50 thousand fans. Or 50 bands with 20 thousand fans". You do get the point, right?

But check out what this GENIUS said:

"Oh, your argument is SO flawed. Let's take your example of 1 million fans split into 50 bands. You know what, let's now think one hundred bands, with 10 thousand fans each. Now, there are about six billion people on the planet, right? So you take these 10 thousand fans and spread them evenly throughout the planet and guess what, each city will have like ONE fan. That will make thinks impossible for bands to have concerts. This ONE fan cannot fund the band by going into their concerts."

I have never laughed so hard reading something on the internet ...

The Evil Dead · **Posted:** Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:51 pm

Adveser wrote:

for the record, bying merch and tickets is good and all but doesn't give anyone liscence to download the albums for free.

It does if I don't feel they're good enough to pay 15-20 dollars for.

Also I didn't mention it in the first place because I don't feel I should have to. My point is that Bodom is still around, and they've been popular since downloading music took off. So are numerous other metal bands from the DL gen, Bodom is just an example. It doesn't have as large as an impact as people and the biz like to make it out to.

Also many downloaders DO support the bands by buying tickets and merch, which the band sees the biggest profits from ( As far as I'm aware ). Also albums are bought because hey, the good ones are nice to own, right? I've never really encountered someone that was a pure downloader and hadn't bought any CD's whatsoever.

When is the last time some metal band was like " Well guys, can't put one out because you SOB's are all DLing music! We're done! "

And I'm not talking about Metallica or KISS or whatever.

But yeah, not trying to come off as a dick or anything just stating my case.

I feel it's overstated, but that's just my opinion. I'm sure I'm wrong in all kinds of ways.

Adveser · **Joined:** Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:26 am **Posts:** 2491

Buying everything but the album doesn't help the record labels scout and sign new bands or make money from their investment in the band. When you buy a shirt, you get a shirt, when you buy a ticket, you see a concert, when you buy the record, you get the music. The music does not come from ticket sales or merch sales. bands don't get dropped for poor concert attendance or lack of merch sales, they don't get to renew their record deal with awful sales and a booming live concert market and merch sales.

showmaster · **Posted:** Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:00 pm

Adveser wrote:

Buying everything but the album doesn't help the record labels scout and sign new bands or make money from their investment in the band. When you buy a shirt, you get a shirt, when you buy a ticket, you see a concert, when you buy the record, you get the music. The music does not come from ticket sales or merch sales. bands don't get dropped for poor concert attendance or lack of merch sales, they don't get to renew their record deal with awful sales and a booming live concert market and merch sales.

Maybe you're right, but I don't think so that your statement is fully correct. The way I see maybe will record labels get weaker, because of the downloading record labels scouts will not be necessary because good music will spread over the internet faster you can imagine and as a result of that people will instantly buy merch and stuff (and how band is goin to pay the merch, easy... starting investment like in any other business). So I think downloading is good.

Pasqua · **Posted:** Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:31 pm

I was wondering.

Why do you think small record labels don't distribute their band's music for free in their website? WHOLE albums?

I mean SMALL record labels. The ones that take ADVANTAGE of higher exposition of their bands through downloads.

Are they afraid of something? Are they not believing downloads help spread knowledge of their bands which can lead to CD sales?

I can understand why EMI and Warner don't do it, of course.

And what do you think is the percentage of artists that say they're againts downloads just not to begin a conflict with their record label? Like when a banda doesnt really care about the downloads, but if they SAY that, their record label will go "dude what the fck are you doing, you're fucking us when you say that".

hellraiser_xes · **Posted:** Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:15 am

I'm not sure how it goes over there, but here in Malaysia smaller records can't afford to have their albums ripped off the net because every CD sold is money to them. Here the smaller the label, the cheaper the CD is. One of our smaller labels, Nebiula Records sell their CD's around RM 20, while the slightly bigger ones load theirs off at RM 25-RM 30. Then the big ones like EMI and Universal have theirs at RM 40++. These rates are mostly for local bands and artistes or local pressings of foreign artistes.

Basically the cost of the CD production is the same regardless of how big the label is, but the smaller labels sell theirs cheaper, meaning less profit compared to the bigger ones. So I can see why the smaller labels fuss more than the bigger ones.

Pasqua · **Posted:** Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:31 pm

So you think smaller labels just don't believe that having their stuff in the net INCREASES sales ... that can be true. I admit that it can be a very tough choice. One can think the risk is high, you know ... putting stuff for free now hoping the sales will come later.

There are lots and lots of cases where downloading helped increasing record sales for small artists, but ... maybe the small labels feel safe having less money but CERTAIN money ...

The Evil Dead · **Posted:** Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:38 pm

Wow. Get over yourself Adveser. I've spent thousands on metal CD's, merch, and concerts. I think I've done my part.

If you think otherwise. I'll remind myself to cry about it later.

Adveser · **Joined:** Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:26 am **Posts:** 2491

You don't get the point that you can't cut the record companies out of the process of making money from the music?

Let's take Serenity for example. That album is highly rated by everyone, a ton of people have heard of it and it is talked about a rather lot. It probably hasn't sold more than 5,000 copies eiher but 50,000 people have heard of it. If you owned Napalm records and worked hard to get that album out how would you feel if the band, the merchandisers and everyone else were making it big but you?

It isn't a question of supporting the industry, it is a matter of supporting the bands, artists, labels and everyone concerned in a proportionate manner. It is a very very complicated issue, simplifying it doesn't make it seem like a better idea to download. It can be a great idea, but a lot of people aren't getting the message.

The ones who claim they have bought enough music is why they download are the very people that shouldn't be doing it. Like I said earlier, it should be a matter of respecting the artists and smaller labels. There is no "i supported them when no one knew who they were, now that they have moderate successes will download" There is no entitlement based on what you used to buy or any shit like that.

Goat · **Posted:** Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:58 am

Another interesting point: independant record stores are losing out because people no longer see the need to take time browsing and discovering new music when they can go online and download enough to keep them happy for a few days in about ten minutes. I loved flicking through stuff in the little Steel Wheels and MusicZone stores when I was in Newcastle - now MusicZone's gone bust and there's little chance of SW being anything other than a cool shop round the back of a bar. All because of downloaders.

Pasqua · **Posted:** Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:39 pm

Zad wrote:

Another interesting point: independant record stores are losing out because people no longer see the need to take time browsing and discovering new music when they can go online and download enough to keep them happy for a few days in about ten minutes. I loved flicking through stuff in the little Steel Wheels and MusicZone stores when I was in Newcastle - now MusicZone's gone bust and there's little chance of SW being anything other than a cool shop round the back of a bar. All because of downloaders.

Don't blame the downloaders for this. Blame the internet. It's way more convenient to check out artist web pages, sampling free songs online (I'm talking about the legal ones) than browsing CDs in a store. At least that's what the majority of people thinks.

This is not the first time a new technology overrides a whole business segment. It's evolution. Your complaints can be compared to somebody's complaint in 1910 who had so much fun with horses and then those automobile thingies ruined everything.

showmaster · **Posted:** Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:39 pm

Pasqua wrote:

Zad wrote:

Another interesting point: independant record stores are losing out because people no longer see the need to take time browsing and discovering new music when they can go online and download enough to keep them happy for a few days in about ten minutes. I loved flicking through stuff in the little Steel Wheels and MusicZone stores when I was in Newcastle - now MusicZone's gone bust and there's little chance of SW being anything other than a cool shop round the back of a bar. All because of downloaders.

Don't blame the downloaders for this. Blame the internet. It's way more convenient to check out artist web pages, sampling free songs online (I'm talking about the legal ones) than browsing CDs in a store. At least that's what the majority of people thinks.

This is not the first time a new technology overrides a whole business segment. It's evolution. Your complaints can be compared to somebody's complaint in 1910 who had so much fun with horses and then those automobile thingies ruined everything.

clever! So Embrace the technology!

noodles · **Posted:** Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:17 pm

Pasqua wrote:

Zad wrote:

Another interesting point: independant record stores are losing out because people no longer see the need to take time browsing and discovering new music when they can go online and download enough to keep them happy for a few days in about ten minutes. I loved flicking through stuff in the little Steel Wheels and MusicZone stores when I was in Newcastle - now MusicZone's gone bust and there's little chance of SW being anything other than a cool shop round the back of a bar. All because of downloaders.

Don't blame the downloaders for this. Blame the internet.

yup

derncare · **Joined:** Sat Jul 16, 2005 4:40 am **Posts:** 731

showmaster wrote:

clever! So Embrace the technology!

It's fine to embrace the technology as long as you end up buying the music in some form. I feel bad for the small stores, but that's just what happens. What I don't like is the fact that some people think they can just DL music and never pay or that they've payed before, so it's okay to steal some.

Adveser · **Joined:** Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:26 am **Posts:** 2491

Fuck that. People need to learn personal responsibility - not scape goating and blaming everything but themselves for their actions. It is true of everything. Everyone makes the choice, it is not technologies fault. You can not take away freedom from everyone to facilitate the people that can not take any responsibility for their choices.

derncare · **Joined:** Sat Jul 16, 2005 4:40 am **Posts:** 731

Technology will always grow, and some things businesses, etc. will always get harmed by it. That's just how it is. You can't "blame" technology for a problem. It just is.

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