Metal Reviews

Finally, thanks for being open and honest, just like I was. Your comment and example about Drudkh shows that we two are very different people who fundamentally would not be able to see things the same way. That is OK, people have got to be different, but as long as they are able to talk about it, understand it and resolve it, the world will move on.
Our argument was very much a moral one, and thus it was never possible to establish the "right" and "wrong", to label Infernum NS or not was very much secondary for me.

@Alex: I'm no expert on the religions of the world either. Zionism is (often) part of judaism, but judaism is a much larger concept than that. So zionism does not equal judaism.

I know that the roman catholic church has been the most effective propaganda machine and manipulator in the world since day one of it's existence (and still is). The catholic church is the one religious organization that i despise the most. Something's wrong when the pursuit for power takes a higher priority in a religious organization than the spiritual and philosophical aspects.

I am also aware that the Protocols of Zion Elders is most likely a fake. I don't buy into that stuff at all. Although the relations between the US and Israel sort of makes you wonder, heh.

But yeah, i quess you're right. It's mostly the political aspects that (very often) go hand in hand with judaism that i oppose. I don't have anything against anyone's personal beliefs (even if i consider them false, as i do when it comes to judeo-christian religions in general), as long as they don't affect my life.

And of course there are always many interpretations of a certain religion. I know some christians that i actually agree with on many things. Needless to say, these types are few and far between. The same applies to people of any religion. It's not so much anyone's beliefs that i opposem, it's the way those beliefs manifest themselves.


This whole debate started when Kayla claimed that:



To which i replied to by asking:




I wasn't expecting this kind of shitstorm (funny how a third-rate Polish BM record can create such a long discussion), but i'm not complaining. It's refreshing to have a conversation about something else than "What are your top ten bands atm?" on this forum from time to time.

But i hope i've made my point now. But do feel free to reply if i haven't.

Jürgen - thanks for clarifying your statement. Alex has fairly well expressed my thoughts on the subject; there's a difference between not believing in the precepts of a religion and actually being morally opposed to it. To further use his example of the Aztecs, I am morally opposed to human sacrifice, but I have nothing against the Aztec religion - if you want to believe in Quetzlcoatl, Tezcatlipoca and the rest of their pantheon, that's perfectly fine. The same thing goes for being "God's chosen people" - after all, according to Christianity, I'm going to burn in eternal torment after I die because I don't believe that Jesus is my savior. While I certainly disagree with that, I'm not opposed to Christianity. (I'm opposed to assholes who use religion as an excuse to be assholes, but that goes for anyone.)

As for the Protocols of the Zion Elders...please, please, please tell me you don't really believe that to be real. It's not. End of story.

As for your statements concerning the fact that "politics often goes hand-in-hand with Judaism," those are also false. There is nothing inherently political about Judaism. That's like saying that Protestantism supports the American government. Sometimes there's crossover, but I don't think there's ever been a time in human history that religion and politics haven't overlapped. The Roman religion was a state one (which, by the by, is why they crucified Jesus - his little cult was getting too big, and the government saw it as a threat), and during the Middle Ages, the church was the most powerful political body in the world. Judaism does not have an agenda. We do not control the world. It's just a religion.

You're also taking my statement about race/religion out of context. I was talking about prejudice there; I'm not very religious, but because of my heritage, I've still gotten shit from assholes throughout my life.

@ Jurgen
I felt you made your point pretty good the first time around, I did not accuse you of any bigotry, did I, but thanks for clarifying. You guys just have to understand that it is a very emotional issue for Kayla and I am going to understand it all the way. She may not be religious (she said that herself), she may not support the policies of the state of Israel, but she has been taking shit from assholes throughout her life, just because she happened to be born to a set of Jewish parents. How is that fair? Because some power hungry bastards perpetrated the best hoax in the history of mankind 2000 yrs ago?
For you hesitating about the Protocols authenticity. Tell me you do not believe some elders got together in some dark corner eons ago and drafted the policy 10s of generations after people are still following. Notice, whenever is the crisis in some corner of the world the Protocols resurface, 19th century Russia, 30s in Europe, now when the situation is coming to a boil, etc. Personally, I am against conspiracy theories in history, period. As far as closeness b/t the US and Israel - it is a pure geopolitical interest and about votes to be had here in the US - it does not mean I completely agree with everything that goes in this alliance.
But where I agree with you completely, there are clear lines to be drawn b/t zionism and judaism. In Israel itself there are multiple fractions: secular zionists who simply want a Westernized state and do not care about religion - these are open to some political settlement with the Palestinians; religious zionists who combine the state aspirations with religion, but understand the modern realities and would not be opposed to a settlement either; messianic zionists who need the state to be there, so they can continue occupying the whole state of Israel - they are opposed to any settlement; and, finally, ultra-orthodox Jews, called Haredim, who are opposed the state of israel altogether, do not serve in its army, and follow judaism tenets to a tee, while not giving a crap about politics altogether. Quite a complex picture, don't you say, and overgeneralization is never right.
I agree that third-rate polish BM band does not deserve a 4-page thread, but this has long ago become a lot more than just a discussion about Infernum, as I pointed to Astaroth. I am for one happy to put out some age old biases in the limelight to completely debase them.

For the record, I don't think you're a bigot either, Jurgen. Upon re-reading my other post, I realize that I didn't make that point really clear.

Double post...

So we were actually arguing semantics all the time. Happens to me a lot. Although i speak english fairly well, it's not my first language. That sometimes leads to misunderstandings.



The book has been confirmed to be a fake used for propaganda. Notice the heh in what i said about the US and Israel.



Exactly.



I'm perfectly aware that there are stupid people who can't make the distinction between the race and the religion.



I understand that.


Group hug?

.. to quote one of my favorite sportsquotes: " I'm all in!!!"

Wow, I'm not going to review Burzum! Wieooooooowieoooo

Group hug it is!

Group hug!

(If I wasn't unbelievably busy with finals, I'd draw a forum hug. Unfortunately, the pan-art-class show goes up this Wednesday, and the advanced studio show goes up next Tuesday. No time for Kayla.)

I agree, listen to the shit or don't. If you make a moral stand on NS crap and not buying the albums that is cool. If you can look past that and enjoy the music, fair enough as well.

Graveland, GBK, Arghoslent and others do make excellant music but if you don't have the stomach for their ideology then don't listen and NO, you shouldn't have to make excuses about why you don't listen to them or why you don't review them. Stick by your guns and make it happen and if people don't like it they can go read about those bands on sites that don't care.

Personally I don't care if you review Burzum or not here, but I would care if you all suddenly switched your position because people bitched about it.

I didn't know Grand Belials Key were NS?!?!

eh?! doesn't everybody know that?!
If i'm not mistaking they were actually banned from playing at a concert here in Denmark a few years ago.

Maybe just Anti Jew....I mean come on "Kosherat"?

I don't know if they are NS per se, and GBK doesn't really deal with racial stuff. Arghosolent on the other hand, that stuff is entirely racial.

And Satanicunt... I thought they just were some kinda funny band, hahaha

Agreed with the first part: It's purely semantics, however. You can be a nationalist, and a socialist combined with that, but the phrase "national socialist" is so tied to Hitler that you can't realistically consider it to mean anything but Nazism.

However, I would dispute that Nazism's social and economic policies were well defined. Economically, in particular, once Hitler took control of the party I think he made a lot of his policies as he went along. The policies he adopted in power were considerably less "socialist" than those in his manifesto, for example. Socially I guess a more definite pattern emerges, but in this area I do think anti-semitism is the most dominant factor- all his other ideas really took second place behind that.

It is but it is very historical if you read their lyrics, but they have some very offensive stuff like "Quelling the Simian Urge" and "Rape of a Slave" all on Incorrigable Bigotry. The other album of theirs that I have (forget the name offhand) isn't quite that bad. Incrediable band though, jaw dropping how good they play.

Besides aren't GBK and Arghoslent all related? Anyways I don't care, I am a race mixer so I hope they enjoy that someone like me buys their albums.

GBK and Arghoslent share some members. Members of both bands are very anti-semitic and racist.

They're very hated by Antifa. Denmark wasn't the only place where they were banned on their last tour. They actually played in Finland, but i couldn't make the gig. Sucks, as they are a killer band.