Metal Reviews

I think this discussion is gay.

said the whining guy from the Evanescence review discussion. " boohooo... noooOOO!!! Bad review! Bad Review!!! I like whiny lyrics about lovetrouble... i like str000ng women!! boohooo "




edit: wtf!? you've deleted your first comments in the discussion?! cute!!! a guy who stands firm on his belief

I am not sure what "gay" discussion is, this one, although perhaps not the most fitting for the music forums, cuts right to the core of a very sensitive and controversial issue, some of it related to music and metal in particular, and, thus, belongs. Fortunately or unfortunately ...
Despite my statement calling the attention of posters in this thread how a very mediocre and crappy album can unfold this wave of emotion again, it went unnoticed, except Metalness getting my point, thanks man.
There were lots of posts here explaining to the others, less enlightened, the fine twist differences b/t national socialism, nazism, racism, etc. I find this armchair debating from behind the privacy of your own computer keyboard very similar to what plagues an average neocon saying that the US should invade here and "instill democracy" there. You have got to feel it with your skin, and then the perception may change quite a bit. I thought I'd try and put a little more personality to this debate.
Astaroth, there is a little place in Germany called Buchenwald. It is in the former East Germany, so I was able to visit while growing up in the former USSR, as a part of our Communist Youth exchange. While technically not an Osventsim, which was a death camp, visiting that place left an undying memory in my brain. In the middle of it there is a 50m tall tower with the bell that never stops ringing. Maybe I was an impressionable 15yr old youth then, but the sound of that bell haunted me for months. In my vivid imagination I could not stop thinking, what if it was me, or my parents walking down that aisle towards the execution place. You ought to visit someday, Denmark must be really close, so we could compare notes. Do you think Jews who were there at the time distinguished the fine twists between the Jew hating part of NSDAP and not? As a matter of fact, I believe if all people, at least once in their lives, visited a place of mass extermination of other people, they would hesitate before saying that "war will cure ills", talk about "national superiority, cleansing, etc." What if Russians decided to do that to Ukrainians some day, and Knjazz Varggoth had to go a gas chamber?
I had a chance to see another place like that. On one of my kayaking trips in the North of Russia, Arkhangelsk area, I visited one of Stalin's detention camps. The small channel connecting two rivers has a wall lined with the bones of former Soviet citizens sent to that camp in the 30s.
Here is another one. Sabra and Shattila massacre. Unlike here in the US, it got wide coverage back in the USSR in 1984, when Soviet Union was very much anti-Israel. I have not been to Lebanon, but I still vividly remember the photo of a human hand, torn off its body clutching a Lebanese identification card saying the woman was a Shiite, not a Palestinian. For those who don't know Christian Phalangists, with tacit and overt support of Israel, erased two of the refugee camps off the face of the Earth. Before 67 Israel stood on a high moral ground, but that was a despicable moral low.
I have seen the Jews of Soviet Union. I am not sure about religious or political superiority. To me, they seemed a beat up and prosecuted tribe with the tail between their legs, some of them unwilling to admit they were Jews, hiding their nationality in their passports, locked out of prestigious universities and jobs. Looked pretty pathetic and far from world domination, but hated nonetheless, and considered to be scapegoats for all of the societal ills, although I don't recall a single Jew on the Central Committee of the Communist Party. We used to laugh at school "If there is no water in the faucet then Jews must have drank it".
Now, back to Kayla. You still do not understand why she can't separate music from a person? Burzum from Varg? How would she not feel offended when she is rolled into "I hate all Jews, and because you belong to that tribe I hate you as well"? And thus she will never be able to accept any NSBM, NSDM or NS metal period. Including the fine twist points. Sorry, Kayla, if I am putting words into your mouth.

I never said those things.

And the "gay" comment was just a little light-hearted speed bump to keep this thread from becoming too serious.

HAHA!!

I'm out of this conversation.

A fine novelle, Alex .. shaved it a bit down.




Nope, i don't think Jews could distinguish the none hate Jew NS and the hating part of NS. Besides, as i see it, most ppl back then hated the jews, due to political propaganda etc. Brainwashed and afraid of seeming as national traitors or something like that.
I have been to a few concentration camps around the world. Can't remember where it was, it's 6 years ago now. Only thing i remember is a gaschamber disguised as a bathtub with long scratches from fingernails on the wall.

I can easily understand why Kayla wouldn't review any true NSBM, or BM written by Nazis. But many bands has gotten the label NS on them for no reason. My point all along has been that anti-semitism is not what makes a band NS, nor does the ppl's ideology behind the band effect the label of the band, unless it is expressed in the music. If i made BM about flowers and love, i would be damned if my music was labelled as NSBM just because i was anti-semitic outside the band. Besides, we shouldn't forget that anti-semitism is many things. Due to the (jewish) difinition it could be mere anti-zionism and anti-judaism, without any hate for the jewish race involved. I am by no means a Nazi just because i don't agree with zionism or Israel's policy, f.ex. And what does that have to do with this review? I don't believe this band is NSBM at all, not only that, but the lyrics are about satanism.

Isnt one of the goals of most musicians to instill some sort of an emotion? Last time I checked hate is a pretty good emotion.

I'm sorry, Astaroth, but that is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. This is taken from the Oxford English Dictionary:

anti-Semitism: Theory, action, or practice directed against the Jews. Hence anti-Semite, one who is hostile or opposed to the Jews; anti-Semitic a.

No, you can't be anti-Semitic without hating Jews. That's what it means. There's also no difference between the "race" and the "religion," at least when it comes to goyim. Halachically Jewish or not, you're still a kike.

I don't understand why you all are so upset. I reviewed the damn band, didn't I? I even posted the damn thing after I found their affiliations. I'd say that I was being extremely fair to them, given how mild the content was. Tell me, what on earth difference does it make to you if I find Nokturnal Mortum or Burzum distasteful? You don't share my feelings, fine. There are plenty of people who do share your views, and can separate the ideology and musician from the music, who will do a fine job of reviewing them. I can't. I can't listen to music that I would probably enjoy greatly (Drudkh, for example) while knowing that the musician hates me for my religion and heritage. Astaroth, If I made the best goddamn bm ever written that railed against Danes, blamed them for all the world's ills, and talked about my pure, strong race rising up to wipe them off the face of the earth, you probably wouldn't want to listen to it. And then, if ten thousand other bands picked up my ideology, you too might be leery of a band that used "Dane" as an epithet. If my ideology was based on a real event wherein nearly the entire population of Danes living in Europe were exterminated, you'd probably be even more leery of such things.

Of course, non-Danes could love my music, as it is, in fact, the best goddamn bm ever written. And call you silly for not wanting to listen to it, because it's just music, and this band isn't technically anti-Dane, it's just espousing racial purity, and using anti-Dane rhetoric as shorthand. And this band over here doesn't hate Danes, it's just anti-Dane, but not in the way that hates the Danish race.

In conclusion, I'm out of this discussion. You have my thoughts on the music. And, just to forestall any and all criticisms, I hadn't read the lyrics or the band's website before I reviewed the album. My thoughts are "pure," as it were.

yes. wow... it must be true what Oxford describes in small sentences.

how about this then, yes i know it's from the internet.

if this is not true, then it's funny that many jews claim that ppl who don't agree with Israel's policy are anti-semitic.


And to the rest. It would be nice if you actually did read what i wrote, instead of replying me with what you think you read. But i'll answer your question anyway. I for one wouldn't care if such Anti-dane movement existed within black metal. I would find it highly amusing. We are already used to the fact that muslims doesn't like us in the middleeast, ha ha .. and there is no such thing as a danish race.
However, i do know what u mean. I'm good at empathy


And i for one hasn't told you u should go listen to NSBM, that's you're own choice, but i did say i easily understood if you didn't want to listen to NSBM or to BM written by nazis.




Anyway... you're still missunderstanding my point interily.

Let's not pull out the ace card of the "misunderstood complex thinker", Astaroth. A nice shave of my novella, BTW. I am 36 now, I was 14 when I was to Buchenwald, and I remember that day like it was yesterday. It surprises me that you don't even remember the name of the place to which you have been 6 yrs ago. Oh, well, perhaps I have better memory. What country was it in anyway? Poland, Germany? I don't think there is one in Denmark, so you had to travel outside. Just to answer your short response to my long novella.
But so you don;t feel misunderstood, let me try and say what I think you are saying:
Your point: anti-semitism does not make the band NS. My point: yes, NS is a much broader notion than just being anti-semitic, but if the band has anti-semiitic leanings in their lyrics (I gave you very clear examples), that makes me not interested. I would not review them, or listen to them.
Your point: if your BM band was about trees and flowers, but outside the band you were an anti-semite your band should not be labeled NSBM. My point: agree, the label does not apply.
My point: would I listen to this imaginary band of yours. Yes, I would. To begin with. Until I found out, on purpose or accidentally, what you were on the outside. If you esposed your views so I would learn about them somehow, I would stop listening to your band, because as a person you would begin to disgust me.
Now, let's revert the case. Let's say I have the BM band that sings about trees and flowers, but on the outside I am a rabid anti-semite advocating wiping the Jews off the face of the Earth. You loved my band, for its music. Then you accidentally found out about my views. Would you continue to love my music. A simple question, right? And, see, to make sure I understand I went point-counterpoint. Feel free to correct me where I was wrong.

I'm no expert on the religions of the world either. Zionism is (often) part of judaism, but judaism is a much larger concept than that. So zionism does not equal judaism.

I know that the roman catholic church has been the most effective propaganda machine and manipulator in the world since day one of it's existence (and still is). The catholic church is the one religious organization that i despise the most. Something's wrong when the pursuit for power takes a higher priority in a religious organization than the spiritual and philosophical aspects.

I am also aware that the Protocols of Zion Elders is most likely a fake. I don't buy into that stuff at all. Although the relations between the US and Israel sort of makes you wonder, heh.

But yeah, i quess you're right. It's mostly the political aspects that (very often) go hand in hand with judaism that i oppose. I don't have anything against anyone's personal beliefs (even if i consider them false, as i do when it comes to judeo-christian religions in general), as long as they don't affect my life.

And of course there are always many interpretations of a certain religion. I know some christians that i actually agree with on many things. Needless to say, these types are few and far between. The same applies to people of any religion. It's not so much anyone's beliefs that i opposem, it's the way those beliefs manifest themselves.


This whole debate started when Kayla claimed that:



To which i replied to by asking:




I wasn't expecting this kind of shitstorm, but i'm not complaining. It's refreshing to have a conversation about something else than "What are your top ten bands atm?" on this forum from time to time.

But i hope i've made my point now. But do feel free to reply if i haven't.

hmm.. i did understand all this the first time around and think i did answer this.. but perhaps not good enough.
i said: " I can easily understand why Kayla wouldn't review any true NSBM, or BM written by Nazis" perhaps i should have had extended that to "review/listen to".

And yes, i have a crappy memory, i'm afraid. But it was a schooltrip to Prague, so it was probably in Germany on the way down there. But as long i as remember the essence of the camp, it doesn't matter, right? that's how i remember stuff.


"misunderstood complex thinker" - eh?!? My point is very simple: Infernum is not NSBM, neither shows sign of being NS. NS and satanism doesn't go along anyway. Unfortunately, this ended up being about wheither or not ppl would listen to anti-semitic music or music written anti-semitics.

Hmm, I am not sure you understood. I know what Kayla would do based on her convictions, and I described what I would do, but in order for me to understand YOU as a person, not Kayla, I asked what I did.
So, if I had a best BM music singing about trees and flowers, but on the outside I was a rabid anti-semite, and you loved my music, but at a later date found out what I was on the outside, would you continue to love my BM music, and ignore my personal beliefs? Or would you stop listening to my BM music, because you no longer could respect me as a person? This is not a trick question at all, and if you think it is OK to continue liking my music, that is fine too, it is just we are way too different people, which of course happens all the time.
I have had the same discussion once with Misha, and we even went over this hypothetical situation. I am doing business with someone, and he is my very good customer. Then I find out he is an anti-(insert your adjective here). Not in a sense that he does not agree with a country's policy, but he actively pursues the agenda. I would stop doing business with that customer. Specifically, I was selling things to a guy who was a Serbian national, and was located not far from me in Chicago, USA. Then I found out that during the war in Bosnia he went down there to shoot some Muslims. That was it for me.






I said it before in one of my posts somewhere, that I have not listened to this album. I really have no interest as I trust Kayla's opinion, that music is crap. Without listening to the music, reading alysrics sheet or exploring their website, I am not going to label them anything. Crap of the Month is enough already. Was Kayla mistaken in labeling them NS? IS that your argument? That I can't argue because I have no particular knowledge. My argument is very general, and it is formulated in the question above.
For the record, I would not have a problem reviewing satanistic stuff and do it all the time. Misanthropic - yes, hating all of the humanity and this world as a whole - no problem. There is no discrimination in that.

I hate stating that I'll leave a discussion and then coming back in, but I feel compelled to clarify this very, very simple point.

Zionism != Judaism

One is a political standpoint, one is a religion. You can be a Zionist without being a Jew, and you can be a Jew without being a Zionist. Just like you can be a fervent supporter of Bush without being a Protestant fundie, and vice versa.

Which, by the way, makes Astaroth's definitions useless as well. There's no such thing as "non-religious anti-Semitism." Where did you get that crap, anyway? Cite your sources.

And no, you can't be "opposed" to a religion without being a bigot. You can be opposed to a religious practice like animal sacrifice because of your own moral or religious precepts, but that's not the same thing.

That has to be the comment of the day!!! .. There's no such thing as "non-religious anti-semitism"?!? Where did you get that crap from? how about the nazi anti-semitism?! that is non-religious... hallo?!?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/anti-semitism



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Semitism



i could find more if u like. But imo there's several opinions on the meaning of the word.





what if the religion is based on religious pratice, or religious pratice is playing a big part of the religion? What if you are opposed to a religion because of your own moral or religious precepts? Are u a bigot too, then?

ah.. didn't knew u wanted to make me answer those question. Though it was a way of arguing.

Yes, i would continue to listen to your music. I already do listen to some NSBM, like Drudkh f.ex. which is about tree's and flowers and stuff. That doesn't mean i respect the ppl behind the music, nor is it something i brag about to my friends. I have no respect for nazi's or racism, i have no respect for ppl trying to feel better about themselves by hating others due to their own ignorance and stupidity, you see. But the anti-semitism that is dealing with the non-racial i have no problems with, and yes, i know some ppl strongly belief that no such thing exist, but it does to me. However, i don't think that many anti-semitic nsbm bands are dealing with that aspect, cuz it needs a bit more brainpower.

and yes, imo, Kayla was mistaken in labeling them NS? And that wasn't my argument, that was my point.

Where did i say otherwise?



Then call me a bigot. I don't see how being opposed to judaism as a religion is any worse than being opposed to any other religion.

Zionism is not a race. So you can, in fact, be opposed to Zionism without being a racist. I'm opposed to a lot of American policies, but that doesn't mean I hate Americans. There are some Jews who are opposed to Zionism, too.


I don't think I have words to express how unimaginably uncomfortable that sentence has made me. If I may ask, what, exactly, is it about Judaism that you're opposed to? I can understand people who are opposed to Christianity's practice of spreading itself by the sword (most of which is to be blamed on the individuals, but Christianity is a religion that commands its followers to spread it, unlike Judaism), but what is so offensive about Judaism?

Note the question mark in the sentence that you quoted: I can't be opposed to zionism or judaism as a religion without being racist?

Zionism is not a race, just like judaism is not a race. Jews are a race. I am against zionism and judaism, not jews.

And i am perfectly aware that there are jews who oppose zionism, just like there are jews who do not follow judaism.




I'm sorry if what i said made you uncomfortable.

Maybe opposed was too strong a word. By being opposed to judaism i mean that i consider it's morals false and alien to my own worldview. I don't fantasize about wiping out judaism (or christianity or islam, for that matter) because it's a) not possible b) pointless, as there will always be similar movements and people that follow them.
Of course every idea has good and bad aspects, be it judaism, christianity, islam, satanism, nazism, communism, capitalism or whatever. It's all very relative.

There is plenty in the old testament that i consider offensive. Among other things, it basically says that jews, God's chosen race, are better than everyone else. That's pretty damn racist if you ask me.

I still can't see how it's OK to bash christianity/islam/[insert any religion/ideology here] but being against judaism (as a religion) is bad. I'm not dreaming about wiping jews off the face of the earth. The opposition i'm speaking of is opposition on a personal level.


I hope you get my point. I did not mean to offend. But if my opinions make me a bigot in your eyes, then be it.

I do not pretend to be a world expert on religions, but I think you just fell a victim to your own trap. Judaism = Zionism, or not? In one sentence you argue one way, and then revert.
I think we are all victims of 2,000 yrs old stereotypes when it gets to Judaism. The stereotypes that have been planted and carefully cultivated by Roman Catholic Church 2,000 yrs ago. If you read a book called Holy Blood, Holy Grail (the REAL Da Vinci code), you'd understand what I am talking about. The emerging Roman Catholic church needed a scapegoat then, so out came all kinds of prejudices against Jews. It was really the Roman Empire the Christians needed to be opposed, but how do you oppose the place in which you are making your permanent hometown? So out come all kinds of crap stories like the Protocols of Zion Elders, the lie if there ever was one.
The trick was repeated 1,000 yrs later duirn Crusades against Islam, when the Arabs were painted as delirious nomads. At that time Bagdad had lighting system and excellent social structure, while Christians in northern Europe lived in dark damp and cold medieval castles. Take the Vikings, something that must be close to you. Weren't they painted evil by the Christians?
500 yrs ago it was the Protestants, remember St. Bartholomew's night in France? That is why many of them pilgrimed out to America.

You are opposed to the "morals" of judaism and their "worldview"? Ok, but you seemed to cite zionism instead of judaism, and thus you contradict yourself. God's chosen race? You have to look at it in the historical perspective and not take it out of context. When Christianity was formed, they were the religion of have nots, the religion of poor, and thus they wanted to be all inclusive, get more converts. Judaism was formed in the very tribal environment, when their own were to be self-protected against the rival tribe. Take any tribal religion, African, SOuth American. It is always OUR GODS. The Aztecs weren;t going to share THEIR GODS with the neighbors. So, for THEIR GODS they were the chosen race. Only Judaism is a monotheistic religion, and thus God is one. This is HISTORICAL, but is speculated upon today by zionists on one hand and anti-semites on the other.

I think when you say you "oppose" the worldview you meant Zionism and, yes, I do nto equal the two in my book. There are a lot of secular zionists.

What I oppose in judaism is their very messianic outlook on life. Very much a fanatical view, that drives the settlers in the West Bank against the modern reality, but also causes the often the "give up" and closedness in their own ghetto mentality in the Eastern Europe.