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 Post subject: interesting view of metal
PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 10:50 pm 
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Ist Krieg
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Tell us how heavy metal is different (in purely musical terms) from related genres of music such as hard rock, jazz, classical, progressive rock, and punk. Tell us what makes heavy metal distinct.

If you want me to spell it out for you I will, as if I'm some kind of expert...

Metal is distinct from classical and jazz as because it's a form of rock music. Both classical and jazz have been around longer (in the case of classical, a lot longer) and require years of lessons and training for most people. I think of metal as a form of "folk" music because regular folks listen to it and can teach themselves to play it. In this respect, metal resembles punk more than any other form of rock, most obviously because of it's loud guitars and self-imposed "outsider" stance.

Metal and punk have influenced one another to such an extent that there's a word for it: "crossover". Both forms have been around since the late sixties and early seventies. Both seem to go on and on, spewing off sub genres and springing leaks into other scenes as they go along.

As much as punk rockers and metal heads have sneered across the aisle at one another over the years, the fact is that Metal musicians have listened to a lot of Punk, and Punk musicians have listened to a lot of Metal, now and always.


-John Cobbet (Hammers of Misfortune, Ludicra)

i thought this might spark some sort of discussion

and his thoughts on each instrument in metal

Quote:
Tell us about the art of bass playing and how it is generally neglected in heavy metal.
What's criminally neglected in heavy metal isn't bass playing, it's lyrics, but anyway...

I was once talking with this guy who claimed to have assistant-engineered Metallica's And Justice For All. He summed up Metallica's philosophy toward the bass this way: "Turn it down to where you can't hear it and then turn it down some more". While probably a reaction to the death of Cliff Burton, this unfortunate attitude seemed to catch on in metal for a while (along with that horrid clicky bass drum sound).

Listen to Black Sabbath, Iron Maiden, Mercyful Fate or Venom's Black Metal. The bass has a huge, indispensable role in this music. Bass playing is all about bridging the gap between the drums and the guitars; being a solid rhythmic force while still bringing melodic information to the string section. Being able to do this while NOT overplaying is the mark of not only a good bass player, but a good musician.

Tell us why the keyboard is an instrument of heavy metal.

Have you ever heard of John Lord, Keith Emerson, Rick Wakeman, John Paul Jones, Jerry Lee Lewis or Beethoven?

Tell us about the ways and means of heavy metal drumming.

Did you know that there is an international conspiracy to rip off drummers? It's pretty unbelievable how shoddy most drum hardware is and how friggin' expensive it is. This shit breaks all the time, and drummers pay through the nose for it. We can put satellites in space but we can't make a reliable kick drum pedal?

Tell us how a heavy metal vocalist works best.

This totally depends on what style of Metal you're talking about, as the vocal style has such a huge role in defining it. You could put a Death Metal vocal over a Power Metal band and suddenly you're "Melodic Death Metal", or you could put a Black Metal vocal over a Death Metal Band and you're "Blackened Death Metal". You could put an Emo singer over a Melodic Death Metal band and now you're "Metalcore". See what I mean?

I like to mix metal vocals a little low, sort of in between the guitars so they don't dwarf the music and the band sounds nice and loud. Not everyone agrees with me on this. A lot of people like the vocals way up so they dominate the mix. This is how they mix pop music, all drums and vocals. It always shocks me to hear how many metal albums are mixed this way.

The human ear is psychoacoustically tuned to hear the human voice, so it's the first thing people hear without even realizing it. Vocals and drums are the most primordial and important instruments - the human voice and the heartbeat. In a metal mix, however, it's important for the guitars and drums to be loud.

Tell us why the guitar is the central and necessary focus for heavy metal. Discuss your views of guitar solos as well.

You mean electric guitar. The mechanics of playing a guitar and the way an electric guitar behaves when cranked to nosebleed volume have defined metal from the beginning. Metal is a product of these factors, not the other way around. Without the peculiarities of the electric guitar and the burgeoning amp technology that made them really loud and distorted there would be no such thing as metal.

Also, guitars are affordable, versatile and it's relatively easy to learn how to play one. Therefore, middle class and lower income kids can become guitar players without spending a fortune on a formal education. Electric guitars sound really angry and menacing when played with a lot of overdrive, and lower income kids generally feel very angry and menaced.

Guitar solos have gone from being an outstanding feature (Hendrix, Page), to an area of specialized innovation (Van Halen, Uli Roth), to a fetish (Steve Vai, Satriani) to a joke (Guy Man Dude, Shrapnel Records). Too often, guitar solos are used as a default arrangement tool that acts as filler and a chance for the guitarist to show off. There are lots of guitar harmonies and melodic passages in Hammer's and Ludicra's music, but very few straight-up solos. Once in a while there will be a solo, and it'll stand out because we don't hang leads all over every song.

Another factor that cannot be ignored is the "guitar hero", which was a huge part of metal culture throughout the seventies and early eighties. Blame this on marketing or blame it on the lust for glory of a few generations of impressionable young kids. You see the same thing today with rappers. Hero worship will always be used to exploit kids and separate them from their parent's money.


http://www.lotfp.com/content.php?interviewid=53 if you want to read the rest of the interview (it doesn't really have anything to do with his bands, so even if you havent heard of them its worth reading).


Last edited by noodles on Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 10:55 pm 
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A bit strange point of view. Of course metal & punk are close genres, but the whole concept is breaking down, when we think about the 70's metal like Judas Priest, Rainbow, AC/DC which couldn't have been inspired by punk in any way...


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:02 pm 
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Yeah, I think the two genres sort of used different means to get the same sort of effect when they were first coming out - while punk was based around playing sloppy but energetic, everything about metal was operatic and surgically precise. But they were both liked for being more aggressive than rock music at the time.

One thing I find odd is that the two genres started incorporating influences from other genres at similar times - NoMeansNo were making jazz-punk at the same time as Atheist and Cynic were starting jazz-metal.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:06 pm 
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Interesting things you are saying :) Perhaps the rebellious attitude is present in both of them. However I see metal more romantic (freedom, individuality), and punk is more fatalistic, more against everything and as the metal music doesn't have a goal, then punk aims at fighting agains the establishment and all norms and rules.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:58 pm 
Angel Black wrote:
A bit strange point of view. Of course metal & punk are close genres, but the whole concept is breaking down, when we think about the 70's metal like Judas Priest, Rainbow, AC/DC which couldn't have been inspired by punk in any way...

None of those bands are metal. They're rock bands. Only Judas Priest ever touched upon metal, but they were mostly a rock band.

And where does punk come from? Rock.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:28 am 
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I think of metal as a form of "folk" music because regular folks listen to it and can teach themselves to play it. In this respect, metal resembles punk more than any other form of rock, most obviously because of it's loud guitars and self-imposed "outsider" stance.


I think of punk as much more of a folk genre than metal. At least I mean the comparison is more universally compatible there. Metal has plenty of regular blue collar "folk" bands, but plenty of elitist ones as well, making it much harder to talk about in those terms.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 1:31 am 
rio wrote:
Quote:
I think of metal as a form of "folk" music because regular folks listen to it and can teach themselves to play it. In this respect, metal resembles punk more than any other form of rock, most obviously because of it's loud guitars and self-imposed "outsider" stance.


I think of punk as much more of a folk genre than metal. At least I mean the comparison is more universally compatible there. Metal has plenty of regular blue collar "folk" bands, but plenty of elitist ones as well, making it much harder to talk about in those terms.


Punk has tons of elitists. :|


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 2:05 am 
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Husker wrote:
rio wrote:
Quote:
I think of metal as a form of "folk" music because regular folks listen to it and can teach themselves to play it. In this respect, metal resembles punk more than any other form of rock, most obviously because of it's loud guitars and self-imposed "outsider" stance.


I think of punk as much more of a folk genre than metal. At least I mean the comparison is more universally compatible there. Metal has plenty of regular blue collar "folk" bands, but plenty of elitist ones as well, making it much harder to talk about in those terms.


Punk has tons of elitists. :|


Yes, but elitist fans more than elitist bands in my experience. Although elitist was probably the wrong word to use there as it's not quite what I mean. Can't think of a better one right now as it's my bedtime. Maybe tomorrow I can rephrase that better. :lame:


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 4:33 am 
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Eyesore wrote:
Angel Black wrote:
A bit strange point of view. Of course metal & punk are close genres, but the whole concept is breaking down, when we think about the 70's metal like Judas Priest, Rainbow, AC/DC which couldn't have been inspired by punk in any way...

None of those bands are metal. They're rock bands. Only Judas Priest ever touched upon metal, but they were mostly a rock band.

And where does punk come from? Rock.


Rainbow is for sure Metal and so is Thin Lizzy, 70's Riot, early Scorpions and Blue Oyster Cult, you can call it rock if you want but it isn't, not like Foghat, GFR, Bad Company, Free and "true" Rock bands. If you honestly don't think Raising or Long Live Rock n Roll are metal you are disillusioned and song for song they are hevier then early Priest as well. Not to mention Thin Lizzy and the whole twin Guitar attack.

and Punk is more of an attitude or fashion then actual music because for every true band like the Exploited or Dead Kennedys you have the Sex Pistols or Green Day


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 4:51 am 
I've always viewed those bands as being more rock than metal. I've always thought even Maiden had a good amount of rock there as well.

It's stupid to argue it, but that's what I think.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 9:23 am 
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Eyesore wrote:
I've always viewed those bands as being more rock than metal. I've always thought even Maiden had a good amount of rock there as well.

It's stupid to argue it, but that's what I think.


I see. But you know, those band were called Heavy Metal in the 70s and their songs have Heavy Metal structures and so on, only the heaviness isn't as big as it has been later. I use the the term "70s Heavy Metal" very carefully, and perhaps not so often as Thrash or Power, but I just want to mention some ideas, processes and genres that were present in the 70s and weren't far from what was done in the 80s as there were something like proto-heavy :) Ufff... :D


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 11:52 am 
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Eyesore wrote:
I've always viewed those bands as being more rock than metal. I've always thought even Maiden had a good amount of rock there as well.

It's stupid to argue it, but that's what I think.


Fair enough but you are wrong. lol. So Black Sabbath was the only Metal Band till 1979?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:52 pm 
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I always said they were more of rock bands aswell, although my friends always frowned at me.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 4:54 pm 
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Yeah, Rainbow, Scorpions and Iron Maiden have a rock edge in their sound, but they're still metal as fuck. Metal didn't just come out of nowhere in the beginning of the eighties.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:23 pm 
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Jürgen wrote:
Yeah, Rainbow, Scorpions and Iron Maiden have a rock edge in their sound, but they're still metal as fuck. Metal didn't just come out of nowhere in the beginning of the eighties.


*pulls back eyelids revealing small protions of a red, fleshy fruit-do you:
A.reach out and eat the fleshy fruit
B.rub your groin in time to Micheal Jackson's Thriller
C.Pull back you eyelids and reveal what you you have hidden under there*


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 7:57 pm 
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I think metal is much closer to classical (and jazz to a lesser extend) than any other kind of music is. For me there's no other modern kind of music that gives such a freedom of expression and is so musically diverse than metal. And that's why according to me it's closer to the aforementioned two kinds of music.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 2:07 am 
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Antonakis wrote:
I think metal is much closer to classical (and jazz to a lesser extend) than any other kind of music is. For me there's no other modern kind of music that gives such a freedom of expression and is so musically diverse than metal. And that's why according to me it's closer to the aforementioned two kinds of music.

I think pretty much all genres of rock music have at least some bands that sample extensively from classical and jazz. Also metal is extremely limiting as far as freedom of expression goes because there is a fairly strong push for bands to stick themselves into one set subgenre.... and generally if a band is freely expressing themselves they won't bother constraining themselves to the limitations of a genre.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 7:21 am 
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In my opinion, bands such as Black Sabbath, Priest, Rainbow etc have always been heavy metal. Do understand their guitar playing styles were way different than any rock band. Somebody mentioned 70's Heavy Metal, I guess that's the best way to call them.

And saying metal neglected bass was pretty silly. Thank god he mentioned Maiden, Sabbath etc. But to some extent, there's a point as well. Most metal bass lines tend to just follow the guitars, giving the bassist not much space for being independent. But this of course is not the case for Steve Harris, Geezer Butler, Ian Hill and the older generation of metal bassist.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 7:31 am 
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I think he was dead on about bassists - I mean if you look at metal bands in the last 15 years), most of the time the bassist isn't even audible, and when it is it is usually played in an overally flamboyant way (Steve Digorgio...). It's very rare that you have a bassist that complements the music he is playing with and makes himself noticed.

btw if you haven't heard any of john cobbett's bands, you should:

www.myspace.com/ludicra <--- Ludicra, a progressive melodic black metal band

www.myspace.com/hammersofmisfortune <-- Hammers of Misfortune, an awesome retro-prog metal band.

(neither really fits perfectly into any subgenre of metal, so those descriptions arent too great)


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:46 pm 
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Metal to me has become the most plyable music in the world. Where every other genre of music has mostly seen limits (some artists push them a little, but still...), metal seems to be able to branch out in countless directions. I think this mostly has to do with the longevity of metal itself and the attitude of many metal fans/musicians. Many kids who grow up as metalheads are not generally accpeted in society due to their tastes, look, etc. I think that leads to many of those kids having an attitude that won't allow them to treat others the same way. Although it unfortunately also leads to a few who become elitist themselves, my personal belief is that in general, theres a certain amount of acceptance in the metal community that leads to open minds about other respectable genres of music (classical, jazz, etc. - I didn't mention blues because it was already at the foundation of rock and jazz anyway), so when bands choose to incorporate these kinds of elements into their music, there's a large enough group of metal fans open to it for those bands to have a chance.

I hope that ramble made sense.

Anyway, about bass in metal. There definitely aren't enough bands giving their bass player a chance to be much more than a name in the booklet, especially in power, speed, and thrash metal (and other innumerable variants of said labels). I personally think it will always be difficult to get bass to be more effective in thrash, but there are a couple power metal bands that do have a bass presence, so there's hope, but when you hear some of these bands describe their recording process, bass is almost treated like an afterthought most of the time anyway :P


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