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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:08 pm 
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metalNESS wrote:

No I didn't. You're twisting my words around. He doesn't hear what makes Nile so special, so what? His taste in music is obviously different, so I say your statement was out of line.


He doesn't hear the depths, the technical complexities that make it special, so he is lacking something, some ability to concentrate. Taste is another matter altogether, far different from comparing DEP and Bolt Thrower, for goodness' sake.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:11 pm 
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Radagast wrote:
Zad wrote:
Radagast wrote:
I could just as easily turn it round and say you can't tell DragonForce songs apart because you lack the musical knowledge (whatever the fuck that is) to do so. This whole argument basically stems from the moronic assumption that the extreme genres are automatically more 'proper' and 'credible' music than Power Metal.


Not at all. You can't deny PM is less complex than Extreme Metal, and I never said 'twas more "proper" or "credible".


Are you sersiously trying to tell me Pagan's Mind are less complex than Cannibal Corpse?

There is no dividing line of "style x is more complex than style y"


Woah, I completely read over that statement (Zad’s). That is the biggest crock I have ever read.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:13 pm 
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metalNESS wrote:
Radagast wrote:
Zad wrote:
Radagast wrote:
I could just as easily turn it round and say you can't tell DragonForce songs apart because you lack the musical knowledge (whatever the fuck that is) to do so. This whole argument basically stems from the moronic assumption that the extreme genres are automatically more 'proper' and 'credible' music than Power Metal.


Not at all. You can't deny PM is less complex than Extreme Metal, and I never said 'twas more "proper" or "credible".


Are you sersiously trying to tell me Pagan's Mind are less complex than Cannibal Corpse?

There is no dividing line of "style x is more complex than style y"


Woah, I completely read over that statement (Zad’s). That is the biggest crock I have ever read.


I read over Radagast's. OBVIOUSLY, some bands are different, but I think as a general rule 'twould be fair to say death/black is more complex than power/heavy. Here comes a huge list of bands I've never heard of.... :roll:


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:15 pm 
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Zad wrote:
metalNESS wrote:
Radagast wrote:
Zad wrote:
Radagast wrote:
I could just as easily turn it round and say you can't tell DragonForce songs apart because you lack the musical knowledge (whatever the fuck that is) to do so. This whole argument basically stems from the moronic assumption that the extreme genres are automatically more 'proper' and 'credible' music than Power Metal.


Not at all. You can't deny PM is less complex than Extreme Metal, and I never said 'twas more "proper" or "credible".


Are you sersiously trying to tell me Pagan's Mind are less complex than Cannibal Corpse?

There is no dividing line of "style x is more complex than style y"


Woah, I completely read over that statement (Zad’s). That is the biggest crock I have ever read.


I read over Radagast's. OBVIOUSLY, some bands are different, but I think as a general rule 'twould be fair to say death/black is more complex than power/heavy. Here comes a huge list of bands I've never heard of.... :roll:



Right, you've never heard them. How can you say they are less complex?


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:15 pm 
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Zad wrote:
metalNESS wrote:
Radagast wrote:
Zad wrote:
Radagast wrote:
I could just as easily turn it round and say you can't tell DragonForce songs apart because you lack the musical knowledge (whatever the fuck that is) to do so. This whole argument basically stems from the moronic assumption that the extreme genres are automatically more 'proper' and 'credible' music than Power Metal.


Not at all. You can't deny PM is less complex than Extreme Metal, and I never said 'twas more "proper" or "credible".


Are you sersiously trying to tell me Pagan's Mind are less complex than Cannibal Corpse?

There is no dividing line of "style x is more complex than style y"


Woah, I completely read over that statement (Zad’s). That is the biggest crock I have ever read.


I read over Radagast's. OBVIOUSLY, some bands are different, but I think as a general rule 'twould be fair to say death/black is more complex than power/heavy. Here comes a huge list of bands I've never heard of.... :roll:


Seriously, fuck off - how much BM is just minimalist basic guitar playing over blastbeats?

And, yeah, a huge list of bands you've never heard of - because you know fuck all about Power Metal, but keep talking about it as if you do.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:17 pm 
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Radagast wrote:
Seriously, fuck off - how much BM is just minimalist basic guitar playing over blastbeats?

And, yeah, a huge list of bands you've never heard of - because you know fuck all about Power Metal, but keep talking about it as if you do.


That's not Extreme, is it? That's what I meant. And there's more depth to that as well, so nyah.

How do I pretend I do? Admit it, most power metal is fairly striaghtforward stuff.


Last edited by Goat on Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:18 pm 
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It's stupid to make these comparisons...


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:21 pm 
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Zad wrote:
Radagast wrote:
Seriously, fuck off - how much BM is just minimalist basic guitar playing over blastbeats?

And, yeah, a huge list of bands you've never heard of - because you know fuck all about Power Metal, but keep talking about it as if you do.


That's not Extreme, is it? That's what I meant. And there's more depth to that as well, so nyah.

How do I pretend I do? Admit it, most power metal is fairly striaghtforward stuff.


"How do I pretend I do?" Because you're saying a bunch of crap and then saying "oh you'll only try and prove me wrong by listing bands I know nothing about."

That about says it all.

I'll admit (admit? there's no confession here :roll: ) there is a lot of straightforward Power Metal out there, just as there is a helluva lot of straightforward Black, Death, Doom, Heavy, Metalcore etc.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:22 pm 
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Zad wrote:
Radagast wrote:
Seriously, fuck off - how much BM is just minimalist basic guitar playing over blastbeats?

And, yeah, a huge list of bands you've never heard of - because you know fuck all about Power Metal, but keep talking about it as if you do.


That's not Extreme, is it? That's what I meant. And there's more depth to that as well, so nyah.

How do I pretend I do? Admit it, most power metal is fairly striaghtforward stuff.


Most music is straightforward stuff. There are some complex death/black and some complex power/prog. That doesn't make one genre more or less complex. Like Dago said though, this is a horrible comparison. It just gets to me when you try and make power metal fans look inferior to more aggressive metal fans.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:24 pm 
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metalNESS wrote:
Zad wrote:
Radagast wrote:
Seriously, fuck off - how much BM is just minimalist basic guitar playing over blastbeats?

And, yeah, a huge list of bands you've never heard of - because you know fuck all about Power Metal, but keep talking about it as if you do.


That's not Extreme, is it? That's what I meant. And there's more depth to that as well, so nyah.

How do I pretend I do? Admit it, most power metal is fairly striaghtforward stuff.


Most music is straightforward stuff. There are some complex death/black and some complex power/prog. That doesn't make one genre more or less complex. Like Dago said though, this is a horrible comparison. It just gets to me when you try and make power metal fans look inferior to more aggressive metal fans.

Yeah, that is essentially what has pissed me off here.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:24 pm 
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metalNESS wrote:
Zad wrote:
Radagast wrote:
Seriously, fuck off - how much BM is just minimalist basic guitar playing over blastbeats?

And, yeah, a huge list of bands you've never heard of - because you know fuck all about Power Metal, but keep talking about it as if you do.


That's not Extreme, is it? That's what I meant. And there's more depth to that as well, so nyah.

How do I pretend I do? Admit it, most power metal is fairly striaghtforward stuff.


Most music is straightforward stuff. There are some complex death/black and some complex power/prog. That doesn't make one genre more or less complex. Like Dago said though, this is a horrible comparison. It just gets to me when you try and make power metal fans look inferior to more aggressive metal fans.


Is Arthur a Power Metal fan? I thought he was an Extremer! This wasn't an attack on you <s>softies</s> power metalheads, or wasn't intended as such, at least...


Last edited by Goat on Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:31 pm 
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Zad wrote:
metalNESS wrote:
Zad wrote:
Radagast wrote:
Seriously, fuck off - how much BM is just minimalist basic guitar playing over blastbeats?

And, yeah, a huge list of bands you've never heard of - because you know fuck all about Power Metal, but keep talking about it as if you do.


That's not Extreme, is it? That's what I meant. And there's more depth to that as well, so nyah.

How do I pretend I do? Admit it, most power metal is fairly striaghtforward stuff.


Most music is straightforward stuff. There are some complex death/black and some complex power/prog. That doesn't make one genre more or less complex. Like Dago said though, this is a horrible comparison. It just gets to me when you try and make power metal fans look inferior to more aggressive metal fans.


Is Arthur a Power Metal fan? I thought he was an Extremer! This wasn't an attack on you <s>softies</s> power metalheads, or wasn't intended as such, at least...


I know it wasn't, but it became a "Extreme metal is better than flower metal" argument. Anyway, I'm dropping it. I'll close with "Power metal owns!!!"


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:34 pm 
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metalNESS wrote:
Zad wrote:
metalNESS wrote:
Zad wrote:
Radagast wrote:
Seriously, fuck off - how much BM is just minimalist basic guitar playing over blastbeats?

And, yeah, a huge list of bands you've never heard of - because you know fuck all about Power Metal, but keep talking about it as if you do.


That's not Extreme, is it? That's what I meant. And there's more depth to that as well, so nyah.

How do I pretend I do? Admit it, most power metal is fairly striaghtforward stuff.


Most music is straightforward stuff. There are some complex death/black and some complex power/prog. That doesn't make one genre more or less complex. Like Dago said though, this is a horrible comparison. It just gets to me when you try and make power metal fans look inferior to more aggressive metal fans.


Is Arthur a Power Metal fan? I thought he was an Extremer! This wasn't an attack on you <s>softies</s> power metalheads, or wasn't intended as such, at least...


I know it wasn't, but it became a "Extreme metal is better than flower metal" argument. Anyway, I'm dropping it. I'll close with "Power metal owns!!!"


Well, it is! :wink:
Anyway, of course I wasn't saying that. Are people that like Ambient music stupid? No. It was an attack on Arturo's lack of extremity, which if he's a PMmer was slightly daft, I admit. Sorries if affronted, -NESS and -agast.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 6:09 pm 
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Arthur wrote:
Quote:
Also why did you choose those specific 4 bands?


Well you see, I wrote down the names of some bands and threw them them all in a hat, and those were the four I drew. (I picked them because I have read your posts on them, obviously I don't know every band you like.)

Look I am not saying there is anything wrong with an album that doesn't change a whole lot. It just seems to me that there is this double standard in Metal where if a more upbeat power metal type band like Dragonforce plays the same bright lightening fast music through a whole album, they will get criticized for it. But on the other hand if some psycho heavy as fuck band never changes in any way then they are true and bad ass. (but god help them if they try to do something different.)

I am the proud owner of several Nile albums, but lets face it, super low gurgly vocals, tons of blast beats, and middle eastern acoustic pieces thrown in here and there. Yea, that would basically describe all the Nile song I own, not to mention that just about every song has something to do with Egyptian mysticism. And there's no denying Bolt Thrower's repetitiveness, they've built a reputation on it in fact.

I had at one point (before I traded it) a copy of Once Was Not. It's basiaclly an album of pure drumming. It KIND OF sounded like maybe there were some vocals and some guitars way in the background, I'm not sure. Just non-stop drumming for about 40 minutes. Shit they had to throw in all those sampled intro thingys just so you could tell when one song ended and another began.

Dillenger Escape plan seem like they are cool guys from what I have read from them, they reall do. And I may go back and give them another chance. (I tried just now, and of course the fucking samples on the fucking site, don't fucking work.) Believe me, I have heard every bullshit argument there is about "mathematics" and "song structures," but at the end of the day, every track on Miss Machine sounds like every other track. (a big freaking mess.)

Point is all these bands do, in fact, have albums that are hard to distinguish one track from another. And that's NOT a bad thing, it's perfectly fine actually. I just don't understand why some bands get praised for it and other get the shaft.

Theres a difference between tracks sounding the same and them being actually the same. Dragonforce songs are all structured the same, making them predictable (you know when they are going to throw a solo, melody or certain type of riff in pretty much before the song starts because they do the same thing in each one).

Dillinger Escape Plan, Nile, and Cryptopsy are not predictable in the least, when you are somewhere in a song you basically have no idea what will come next if you have never heard it before. Yes someone who has never heard much death metal would think it is basically the same thing over and over again, but it isn't. Those three bands are unpredictable as fuck and I could listen to their albums over and over again without getting bored, while I can't even get past song 4 of any Dragonforce album (i think I got to 6 once...)


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:16 am 
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In essence, my dear Zad, you are agreeing with me. You and Noodles both brought up the complexities of Cryptopsy, Nile, and The Dillenger Escape plan but failed to mention how that distinguises one track from another. That unpredictability in the music of these bands is EXACTLY whats makes them predictable. You say how you have to be an experienced listener to detect everything they have to offer, but I say having every song be a chaotic death metal train wreck is JUST AS PREDICTABLE as following a "chorus-verse-bridge-chorus" type structure that Dragonforce uses. And Dragonforce is not 100% power metal anyway which is exactly why extremers (as you put it) like Dead Machine and myself are starting to look at power mertal bands in a new light. Here is an excerpt from the review with Herman Li found on this very site.

Quote:
I think for some of the guitar, its really melodic and everything, but some of the guitar is a bit like black metal with really fast picking and the drums are more death metal and vocals are a mixture of Power Metal and melodic type stuff. We try to pick all the elements of all the different styles that we listen to and put them together, the speed I guess comes from when we useed to play death metal when we were young.


You are telling me I don't have the listening skill to pick out the complexities of Nile and Cryptopsy, I say you don't have the listening skill to pick out the complexity of Dragonforce. :wink:


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:22 am 
You must have really fucking bad ears, Arthur, if you can't pick out the guitar in OWN.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 8:35 am 
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Actually I sort of agree with you for most death metal bands, but not Dillinger Escape Plan


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 8:36 am 
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There's nothing wrong with my ears you knuckle dragging bafoon.

Image

Of course I know there is guitar in Once Was Not, but those fucking drums over power EVERYTHING ELSE. If you took out those electronic samples you could easily run all the tracks on there into one big song. Don't make me whip out Sound Forge and prove it.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 8:38 am 
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Yea Cryptopsy's drums are so fuckin loud it ruins everything else. And seriously, is there a point to them having a singer?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 8:40 am 
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I would still own that album if it wasn't for that damn singer. (well whatever you want to call him)


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