Metal Reviews

i'm guilty of cluttering other threads with my pedantic divisiveness other whether a given band is truely progressive. so let's do it here instead!

neo-prog: this term was originally coined for a new wave of bands from the 80s (marillion, iq, pallas) but it can be expanded to this definition: following the rules laid down by prog bands from a previous era; not really innovating in anyway, merely creating long and/or convoluted songs with a symphonic taste. kinda hijacked by christianity by this point. relevant bands: Marillion, Flower Kings, Dream Face-Stabbingly Awful Theater.

someone define avant-garde for us before we work on the big one 8)

avant-garde is just experimental music isn't it?

Wikipedia - Avant-garde pushes the boundaries of what is accepted as the norm within definitions of art/culture/reality. It is the sharp edge, where things arise.

wikipedia too :

Avant garde metal, sometimes called experimental, is a subgenre of heavy metal characterized by large amounts of experimentation and by non-standard sounds, instruments, and song structures. While progressive metal, like avant garde metal, is also a genre which favours experimentation and non-standard ideas, there are rather large differences between the two genres. One of the most striking differences is that the experimentation of progressive metal lies mostly in complex rhythms and song structures, while the genre usually sticks to a more traditional instrumentation, whereas in avant garde metal the usage of unusual sounds plays usually a fundamental role. Most of the artists that play avant garde metal also have a strong focus on a generally dark atmosphere. The genre has often been associated with black metal, and a number of avant garde bands also have a black metal background, but it is generally looked down upon by black metal purists, who consider common elements from avant garde metal, such as keyboards or female vocals, an alienating element which has nothing to do with "real" black metal.

It should be noted that there is no common agreement within the metal world on the correct usage of the term avant garde metal, though certain issues, such as the presence of experimentation, are agreed upon. Another style of music for which the term avant garde metal has been used, is circus metal.

HAHAHAHAH!!! circus metal? I'm using that from now on. keep in mind I like avant-garde

haha yeah, ICP were very experimen *abandons sentence*

I guess those are fairly good definitions for avant. so like Mr. Bungle etc

one thing is for sure; prog is simply a convenient label that doesn't really mean much.

I don't think you can define progressive. When you've got bands like Nektar, Marrillion, Dream Theater and Ayreon all being labelled "progressive" you know there's no defined line. I think what you need to do is add on a little sub-tag like 70's prog-rock (Nektar), or 90's prog-metal (Dream Theater). At least most of the prog-labelled bands have prog elements. It may not make them a true prog band, but at least it's not completely ridiculous.

I dunno, that's kind of defeatist and it results an inaccurate portrayal of truly original music.. say if there was an original, talented band from the 70s with a name which was an affirmative three letter word, and then some swedish dudes decided to rip the aforementioned band off twenty five years later, calling both of those bands prog is pure bullshit.

I think progressive comes in sort of 2 groups:

The bands that fall into the genre of 'prog', such as Dream Theater, Ayreon, etc.

or

The bands that are doing something new and original within an existing genre; such as Meshuggah's Catch 33 or Biomechanical.

Avant-Guarde is basically pushing boundaries and basically giving your band a genre of its own, like Discus, or to a lesser extent Ephel Duath (imo)

Haha, point well made.

And that avant garde definition seems fine by me.

This is how I define it too. There is progressive music, and then there is music done in the same style as it. for example, Pagan's Mind are essentially power metal influenced by exisiting templates laid down by prog bands. There is very little progressive, in the true sense of the word, about what they do.

That being said, there is a lot of elitism about what constitutes true prog these days. Often when a band does something new or innovative, it is met with a hughty sniff of "huh, that's not prog," which leads me back to the idea that even the more 'kvlt' of prog fans have a defined idea of how it should sound.