Metal Reviews

You said "Nigga, please!"

I think you guys may be missing the point of what Jaden said...

the 666th said:



Pay specieal attention to the word should.

Now, I'm not going to say that's sexist, but it is an overgeneralized comment that does convey what Jaden said it did. If the accusations were true and Tarja knew it, then it would be wrong for her to deny it simply because he's her husband. If she feels they are not true, and/or she wants to defend him then that is her choice.

part of Eyesore's reply:



Your example is not specifically relevant here, and he (Jaden) did not say anything of the sort, and I thought that would have been perfectly clear when he said that he wasn't sure what she did was wrong. Indeed how do any of us know at this point? If the accusations are not true, or not true from both of their individual perspectives and both Tarja and Marcello know it, then their bond will likely be stronger for it, I agree.

However, defending someone simply for the sake of being a friend when you know he/she is in the wrong only makes you in the wrong as well. What honor is there in that anyway?

A former good friend of mine got burnt for doing exactly what some of you are promoting (defending his wife in a bad situation because that's what he's "supposed to" or "should do"), and instead of having a stronger marriage, as I think you are perhaps trying to allude to as being a result, he wound up divorced. ..

Funny enough, I read Tarja's letter, and thought she said exactly what she's "supposed" to say as well according to general public opinion and the precedents of being pc. Which is of course to say, she said very little at all.

-Tyrion

No one here said that.

Then what does this mean?



Perhaps you should emphasize that your words here are, in fact, conditional... maybe even state what those conditions are. :?:

And as you pointed out, she didn't exactly deny the accusations in her letter. So...

-Tyrion

I agree with everything you stated. One should always value the right opinion, not the one their friends or family necessarily hold. Furthermore, I felt the way he worded his statement to be a bit derogatory towards women.

Note that I am not saying that standing up for one's spouse is wrong, but standing up for them merely for the sake of standing up for them is. It's the same logic as mob mentality.

I might have too, but he didn't indicate one way or the other as to whether he would feel the same way if it were a husband defending his wife.



Yep, although I think that calling it logic is probably giving it more credit than it deserves.

-Tyrion

No, I actually don't need to emphasize common sense. Sorry. Had I been discussing something that was unconditional then I would have had to emphasize that. Let's not argue semantics and common sense here, I shouldn't have to point that out.

Oh shut up you all nigga please

Right, because it's perfectly ok to make a fiery refutation of someone's just comment(s), complete with CAPS and exclamations, but not actually explain what you meant by it. :roll:

Lol.

-Tyrion

There is no need for any explanation when a monkey could infer what I meant. It is called—like I said—common sense. His "comment" was not "just" because he took someone else's words and misinterpreted them! His "comment" was not appropriate to the subject he was replying to. Thus everything you have been "defending" is equally unjust.

Since when did this become ethics 101 lol

You have yet to tell me how what I said was unjust. Do you truly believe that appeasing family relations is more important than acting on logic?

And in response to Tyrion, a comment does not need to be intentionally sexist in order to be sexist. Generalizing or miswording can reflect the sexism that is ingrained in us; whether we are aware of it or not does not justify it.

Since when did I have to? You reacted to what [whoever it was that initially said it] as if he stated that a wife MUST ALWAYS defend her husband. It is ridiculous to assume that's what was meant regardless of whether or not he wasn't specific. It wasn't necessary to be specific because common sense should have to told you exactly what he implied, there was absolutely nothing supporting a sexist meaning therefore you must assume that wasn't the intention of his comment. Your comments about it being sexist are inaccurate, and the following tirades by Tyrion have been wholly unnecessary.

You went looking for something that wasn't there.

This statement says this and no more: a wife should stand up for her husband.

If the condition was "a wife should stand up for her husband when he is right", there would be no point in even stating that. One should stand up for any idea that is right, regardless of whose it is. However, I am only taking the statement as it is, you are the one adding the condition, and thus altering it. If he states no condition, the statement is then unconditional. So either he has bad logic, or he is bad at presenting his logic. Either way, it is not my fault for reading a statement as it is.

Indeed. It is what a wife should do. Is it specific in words? No! So why would you assume it's a sexist comment meaning that I wife must defend her husband 100% of the time regardless of the right or wrong of the situation? Doesn't that seem odd? Use common sense here. You read into something that didn't need to be read into. You found an alternate meaning for something that was specific in context and implication.


You're being far too literal here. You're now arguing angles that are unnatural. There is no point in stating "...a wife should stand up for her husband when he is right...", you're correct here, but your reasoning is flawed. It is not because the statement is unconditional, it is because the "when he is right" line is not necessary because that is IMPLIED.

Haha, Jaden can't answer this question, he's never had a girlfriend

Now seriously, I wouldn't have expected that sentence to spark such discussions. However, there's nothing sexist about what I said. Like Tyrion said, I thought that what I said applies the other way around too, just didn't see the need to specify this.

About the second point, that it's wrong... don't put in mouth things I haven't said. I never said you need to blindly defend the people close to you when they make mistakes, I don't believe in that. I wasn't refering to mistakes, or wrong opinions, I was refering to malicious attacks and labeling, which is what Tuomas did through sentences like "We wish that from now on you will listen to your heart instead of Marcelo. Cultural differences combined with greed, opportunism and love is a dangerous combination. Do not wither yourself". This is malicious, and it labels Marcelo as greedy and opportunist, not to mention that the expression "cultural differences" smells a little of racism to me, and probably to her. She felt it was her duty to respond to this, as she surely doesn't view her husband as greedy, opportunist (even if he really is this way) or cultural inferior. And I'm sure you all agree with this.

So, I will rephrase what I said to satisfy the nitpickers: You need to stand up for your spouse if you feel that he/she was either labeled something negative (which you don't feel is true, and it's logical to assume that you never feel it's true, because if you did you wouldn't have probably married him/her in the first place; therefore this explanation is pointless, but there you go) or that he/she was subjected to an uncalled for and extremely vicious attack (even though he/she might be, in some measure, to blame for something). Politically corect this time, I think... though it sounds like shit.

EDIT: I see that meanwhile Eyesore posted something that explains things probably better than my post, I agree with all he said above.

YAY!! EYESORE FOREVER! JADEN AND TYRION NEVER!! :roll:

I honestly don't have the time to reply to everything here that I'd like to, but I'll try to get something across...

Eyesore, the reason it is, to you, implied is because you assume that your values are congruous with those of the original poster. You assume that he meant what you think he meant or what you would have meant had you said it. I do not (or at least I try not to) make those kinds of assumptions about people's values, and this is also at least partly why Jaden and I differed in whether we thought the statements were sexist.

When you take a specific situation and apply a general comment to it, it is prudent to be clear in what you mean. Not only did the 666th not do this, several posts from various people following Jaden's reply failed to address this as well. Thus, I could infer that your points of view were harmonious with those of the original post - which is simply a general statement of, "that is what a wife should do."

Why can I do that? Because Jaden clearly stated that he wasn't sure what Tarja did was the right thing. Meaning it could have been the right thing for her to do, or it could not have been, but he doesn't actually know for himself. Before even attempting to clarify this, you (Eyesore) went on a tirade (would you like for me to define that for you?) of your own. Then a few others came in nodding approval at your response, again without addressing this issue.



Jaden was absolutely correct here in this case. For you to refute that (particularly in the manner you did) is, to use a "word" you used earlier in this thread, absoludicrous. Oh wait, a proper tirade needs at least a few caps and bolds, I think. How's this? ABSOLUDICROUS!!! *Nods in approval* Yay me. :roll:

With regards to the last reply by the 666th....



Ah, but that is exactly what Eyesore is saying we should be doing, is it not?



The labels may actually be appropriate, which I would invite you to consider if you haven't already. It is a fair warning in that it does make sense, and these are reasonable concerns for a person to have / express. Cultural differences does not smell of racism at all to me (again, I guess some of us are looking for things that may be implied). Given that I am not familiar with either Finnish or Argentinian culture probably makes me unable to do anything other than speculate (which I don't want to do) on the reasons for that particular choice of words. That being said though, cultural differences could have to do with Marcelo coming from a poorer background, or each of their cultures may look differently at relationships between man and wife and the interactions with friends and families they have, etc. But to somehow extract racism from that is, I think, unfounded at this point.



I don't agree in that, if she doesn't view her husband as being those things then it is not a matter of "duty" at all, and this distinction is exactly why Jaden and I responded in the first place.



Not necessarily, and it may depend on whether the accusations are negative to you personally or to outside perceptions (or both). The accusations could be dead on, and if Marcelo is, in fact, those things and Tarja is too she might defend her or their position(s) while not actually refuting the original claims themselves. He could be greedy, opportunistic, etc. and so might she, and in that event their being married might make sense. On the other hand, she might not be those things (even if he is). Or she might not have seemed or been that way at one time, and now she does/is. When you ask yourself why then she might marry someone such as that, consider that someone who is greedy and opportunistic needs a source to draw from, and such a person can be very good at selling themselves - particularly to someone who is weaker or less stable (emotionally, etc.) and can be manipulated into a position of needing them back. Perhaps that is why Tuomas threw the word "love" into the mix.

*I made a few later edits when I had more time that fixed some typos and (hopefully) clarified a few things*

-Tyrion

Jaden, if you've never taken any women's studies classes, you should. You'd be great in them. Ditto for any sociology/anthropology classes that emphasize cultural relativism.

I think we've gone a bit off track here. If you wanna talk about "women's studies", start a thread in Helheim. Let's get back to Nightwish and Tarja...