In Australia, serial rape is ok.

noodles · **Posted:** Sat Jul 02, 2011 5:22 am

Define Infinity wrote:

Suppose Mr. X is someone that his relative gets raped or murdered or some other horrible crime. Would he want the murderer or whatever the case might be behind bars, or in solitary confinement, or in very poor conditions, serving time?

What Mr. X wants shouldn't determine the murderer's sentence, because criminal justice shouldn't be about doling out revenge.

SilkCrimsonMoon · **Posted:** Sat Jul 02, 2011 6:13 am

noodles wrote:

Define Infinity wrote:

Suppose Mr. X is someone that his relative gets raped or murdered or some other horrible crime. Would he want the murderer or whatever the case might be behind bars, or in solitary confinement, or in very poor conditions, serving time?

What Mr. X wants shouldn't determine the murderer's sentence, because criminal justice shouldn't be about doling out revenge.

It doesn't mean the justice system is right and doing justice to do people being under it. The justice system is not determined by supernatural powers and is made by humans like me and you so revenge and justice are sometimes in the same boat. People have long made a deal with the government to protect them called a social contract which in times do not satisfy people and are merely laws made by a group of people that see and perceive what is best in basically their own perception (the group of people who decide what is wrong or right). There isn't a voting system is there? So people are forced to accept whatever laws are made and to follow them without a real say.

The Annoying Frenchman · **Posted:** Sat Jul 02, 2011 8:51 am

Bruce_Bitenfils wrote:

The Annoying Frenchman wrote:

Bruce_Bitenfils wrote:

I only know I am, hehe.

and so do i...

Which makes us two humble know-it-alls... No wonder sometimes people say frenchies are arrogant.

we're not arrogant, we're right.

cry of the banshee · **Posted:** Sat Jul 02, 2011 6:43 pm

Cú Chulainn wrote:

Unborn organisms are hardly human. Humanity comes with the ability to conceptualize, something only achieved after 2 years of life, if I remember my facts correctly.

That sounds like the biggest load of crap ever.
Two years?

Anyway, there is a bit of debate on when life begins, exactly.

A few factoids I found on the web:

Quote:

Brain waves have been recorded at 40 days on the Electroencephalogram (EEG). H. Hamlin, "Life or Death by EEG," JAMA, Oct. 12, 1964, p. 120

Quote:

Brain function, as measured on the Electroencephalogram, "appears to be reliably present in the fetus at about eight weeks gestation," or six weeks after conception. J. Goldenring, "Development of the Fetal Brain," New England Jour. of Med., Aug. 26, 1982, p. 564

Quote:

At 18 days [when the mother is only four days late for her first menstrual period], and by 21 days it (the heart) is pumping, through a closed circulatory system, blood whose type is different from that of the mother. J.M. Tanner, G. R. Taylor, and the Editors of Time-Life Books, Growth, New York: Life Science Library, 1965, p.

Quote:

Episodic spontaneous breathing movement have been observed in the healthy human fetus as early as ten weeks gestational age. Conners et al., "Control of Fetal Breathing in the Human Fetus," Am J. OB-GYN, April ‘89, p. 932

Quote:

"In the 11th week of gestation fetal breathing is irregular and episodic. As gestation continues, the breathing movements become more vigorous and rapid." C. Dawes, "Fetal Breathing: Indication of Well Being," Family Practice News, Mar. 16, 1976, p. 6

and :
http://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/artic ... otes2.html

So, you see, it's not so cut and dried as you'd like to believe.

Let me ask you this: say a woman is pregnant, lets say three months along, and somebody attacks her and kills the fetus.
Murder or not? Or something lesser, such as manslaughter?
Or no big deal, nothing to get worked up about, because, it's not a human yet?

And speaking of the ability to conceptualize... if somebody kills a severely mentally disabled Downs Syndrome person, that's not murder? Are you saying thay he is not a human?

traptunderice · **Posted:** Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:00 pm

Is it hypocritical if I want the state to respect rapists even if I want to stomp their face in?

I generally concur with Bruce on this business.

metalladdd · **Posted:** Sat Jul 02, 2011 8:09 pm

cry of the banshee wrote:

Let me ask you this: say a woman is pregnant, lets say three months along, and somebody attacks her and kills the fetus.
Murder or not? Or something lesser, such as manslaughter?
Or no big deal, nothing to get worked up about, because, it's not a human yet?

And speaking of the ability to conceptualize... if somebody kills a severely mentally disabled Downs Syndrome person, that's not murder? Are you saying thay he is not a human?

That reminds me of a very infamous case here in the U.S. a few years ago. Dude kills his pregnant wife and gets convicted of premeditated murder for her AND the unborn child. He got the death penalty and was also required to pay $10,000 towards the woman's family for the funeral.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Peterson

cry of the banshee · **Posted:** Sat Jul 02, 2011 8:25 pm

metalladdd wrote:

cry of the banshee wrote:

Let me ask you this: say a woman is pregnant, lets say three months along, and somebody attacks her and kills the fetus.
Murder or not? Or something lesser, such as manslaughter?
Or no big deal, nothing to get worked up about, because, it's not a human yet?

And speaking of the ability to conceptualize... if somebody kills a severely mentally disabled Downs Syndrome person, that's not murder? Are you saying thay he is not a human?

That reminds me of a very infamous case here in the U.S. a few years ago. Dude kills his pregnant wife and gets convicted of premeditated murder for her AND the unborn child. He got the death penalty and was also required to pay $10,000 towards the woman's family for the funeral.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Peterson

that happened in my neck of the woods, I remember it well.

Cú Chulainn · **Posted:** Sun Jul 03, 2011 5:06 am

cry of the banshee wrote:

Cú Chulainn wrote:

Unborn organisms are hardly human. Humanity comes with the ability to conceptualize, something only achieved after 2 years of life, if I remember my facts correctly.

That sounds like the biggest load of crap ever.
Two years?

Anyway, there is a bit of debate on when life begins, exactly.

A few factoids I found on the web:

Quote:

Brain waves have been recorded at 40 days on the Electroencephalogram (EEG). H. Hamlin, "Life or Death by EEG," JAMA, Oct. 12, 1964, p. 120

Quote:

Brain function, as measured on the Electroencephalogram, "appears to be reliably present in the fetus at about eight weeks gestation," or six weeks after conception. J. Goldenring, "Development of the Fetal Brain," New England Jour. of Med., Aug. 26, 1982, p. 564

Quote:

At 18 days [when the mother is only four days late for her first menstrual period], and by 21 days it (the heart) is pumping, through a closed circulatory system, blood whose type is different from that of the mother. J.M. Tanner, G. R. Taylor, and the Editors of Time-Life Books, Growth, New York: Life Science Library, 1965, p.

Quote:

Episodic spontaneous breathing movement have been observed in the healthy human fetus as early as ten weeks gestational age. Conners et al., "Control of Fetal Breathing in the Human Fetus," Am J. OB-GYN, April ‘89, p. 932

Quote:

"In the 11th week of gestation fetal breathing is irregular and episodic. As gestation continues, the breathing movements become more vigorous and rapid." C. Dawes, "Fetal Breathing: Indication of Well Being," Family Practice News, Mar. 16, 1976, p. 6

and :
http://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/artic ... otes2.html

So, you see, it's not so cut and dried as you'd like to believe.

Let me ask you this: say a woman is pregnant, lets say three months along, and somebody attacks her and kills the fetus.
Murder or not? Or something lesser, such as manslaughter?
Or no big deal, nothing to get worked up about, because, it's not a human yet?

And speaking of the ability to conceptualize... if somebody kills a severely mentally disabled Downs Syndrome person, that's not murder? Are you saying thay he is not a human?

Wow, I've never come across those questions before.

Basically, in my opinion, humanity is defined by the ability to formulate abstract concepts. Anything that cannot do so is not human.

I'm quite drunk.

cry of the banshee · **Posted:** Sun Jul 03, 2011 6:48 am

Cú Chulainn wrote:

cry of the banshee wrote:

Cú Chulainn wrote:

Unborn organisms are hardly human. Humanity comes with the ability to conceptualize, something only achieved after 2 years of life, if I remember my facts correctly.

That sounds like the biggest load of crap ever.
Two years?

Anyway, there is a bit of debate on when life begins, exactly.

A few factoids I found on the web:

Quote:

Brain waves have been recorded at 40 days on the Electroencephalogram (EEG). H. Hamlin, "Life or Death by EEG," JAMA, Oct. 12, 1964, p. 120

Quote:

Brain function, as measured on the Electroencephalogram, "appears to be reliably present in the fetus at about eight weeks gestation," or six weeks after conception. J. Goldenring, "Development of the Fetal Brain," New England Jour. of Med., Aug. 26, 1982, p. 564

Quote:

At 18 days [when the mother is only four days late for her first menstrual period], and by 21 days it (the heart) is pumping, through a closed circulatory system, blood whose type is different from that of the mother. J.M. Tanner, G. R. Taylor, and the Editors of Time-Life Books, Growth, New York: Life Science Library, 1965, p.

Quote:

Episodic spontaneous breathing movement have been observed in the healthy human fetus as early as ten weeks gestational age. Conners et al., "Control of Fetal Breathing in the Human Fetus," Am J. OB-GYN, April ‘89, p. 932

Quote:

"In the 11th week of gestation fetal breathing is irregular and episodic. As gestation continues, the breathing movements become more vigorous and rapid." C. Dawes, "Fetal Breathing: Indication of Well Being," Family Practice News, Mar. 16, 1976, p. 6

and :
http://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/artic ... otes2.html

So, you see, it's not so cut and dried as you'd like to believe.

Let me ask you this: say a woman is pregnant, lets say three months along, and somebody attacks her and kills the fetus.
Murder or not? Or something lesser, such as manslaughter?
Or no big deal, nothing to get worked up about, because, it's not a human yet?

And speaking of the ability to conceptualize... if somebody kills a severely mentally disabled Downs Syndrome person, that's not murder? Are you saying thay he is not a human?

Wow, I've never come across those questions before.

Basically, in my opinion, humanity is defined by the ability to formulate abstract concepts. Anything that cannot do so is not human.

I'm quite drunk.

At what level?
And what about the severely retarded, low I.Q., etc., (I.Q. being directly associated with abstract reasoning)?

The concepts of "right and wrong" could also be considered abstract concepts.

Goat · **Posted:** Sun Jul 03, 2011 11:11 am

It comes down to viability, for me, whether the foetus could survive on its own without the mother. I think the earliest that's happened has been 24 weeks, perhaps not coincidentally the limit in Britain here. Fridge's 'ability to formulate abtract concepts' is a bit odd - so he doesn't see a baby of three months old as human? Perhaps we should wait until he sobers up and see if he gets more sensible... (probably not :wink:

)

The Annoying Frenchman · **Posted:** Sun Jul 03, 2011 11:34 am

...Or wait until he has a toddler of his own, that often put things into perspective.

Goat · **Posted:** Sun Jul 03, 2011 11:36 am

The Annoying Frenchman wrote:

...Or wait until he has a toddler of his own, that often put things into perspective.

That won't take long, at his current pace!

The Annoying Frenchman · **Posted:** Sun Jul 03, 2011 11:37 am

Just what I thought when I was typing it! :lol:

Bruce_Bitenfils · **Posted:** Sun Jul 03, 2011 11:45 am

... and this thread suddenly became hilarious. What a wonderful forum.

Anyway, to me it is simple. The limit is when the embryo becomes a foetus.

Before that : the woman's rights prevail. (=> abortion is allowed. I'm not against rules however, that would limit the use of abortion. I knew a woman who aborted 4 times. This is irresponsible and despicable.)
And after that : the child's rights prevail. (=> abortion is illegal.)

The Annoying Frenchman · **Posted:** Sun Jul 03, 2011 12:02 pm

Tu voterais pas Bayrou des fois? :lol:

Bruce_Bitenfils · **Posted:** Sun Jul 03, 2011 12:17 pm

The Annoying Frenchman wrote:

Tu voterais pas Bayrou des fois? :lol:

Guilty

The Annoying Frenchman · **Posted:** Sun Jul 03, 2011 12:31 pm

MR missed a centrist metalhead, I guess... :wacko:

Cú Chulainn · **Posted:** Sun Jul 03, 2011 12:38 pm

Goat wrote:

It comes down to viability, for me, whether the foetus could survive on its own without the mother. I think the earliest that's happened has been 24 weeks, perhaps not coincidentally the limit in Britain here. Fridge's 'ability to formulate abtract concepts' is a bit odd - so he doesn't see a baby of three months old as human? Perhaps we should wait until he sobers up and see if he gets more sensible... (probably not :wink:

)

Humanity is defined by the fact that we can conceptualize things like culture and whatnot, it separates us fae the animals. Because I dislike the ambiguities and difficulties in defining what constitutes humanity on a biological level (i.e. the vegetable example that someone brought up earlier) I prefer something abstract like that. And I realize that I have to take it to its logical conclusion. So no, I do not consider severely mentally handicapped beings "human". Nor do I consider three month old babbies "human". Not that I'd advocate their extinguishing, obviously, but unless it has shit like memory and the like it's no human.

And fuck you guys, I'm looking for a relationship now! Got a date with a lovely lithuanian girl in an hour and i hope to fuck she's possible girlfriend material.

If not I'll just shag her though, not that big a deal.

Bruce_Bitenfils · **Posted:** Sun Jul 03, 2011 12:42 pm

Cú Chulainn wrote:

[...] and i hope to fuck she's possible girlfriend material.

Please don't tell her that.

Cú Chulainn · **Posted:** Sun Jul 03, 2011 12:43 pm

Bruce_Bitenfils wrote:

Cú Chulainn wrote:

[...] and i hope to fuck she's possible girlfriend material.

Please don't tell her that.

Why the fuck not?

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