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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:08 pm 
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cry of the banshee wrote:
The colors were not used as anything other than a metaphor for how one thing can become something else if that thing is influenced and taken over by an outside factor, c'mon , man, did you really not see that? It's as simple as first grade addition.

Let me ask you this: If a certain segment of a non-Western country was adamant about keeping the West's handprint off of their landscape, would you agree with that desire to maintain their own countries unique identity and culture?
And if you happen to support that, why is it "intolerant" when the same sentiment is reciprocated in the West?
Or perhaps you feel that the West has every right to impose itself on the Muslim world?
Why should the West bend over while the rest of the world is allowed to maintain their unique identity?
Or is the Muslim world simply intolerant and regressive?
Which brings us back to the question: if they ARE intolerant and regressive (in your view), why would you want them in your homeland to begin with, influencing your culture and society?
So, which is it?


Well, it may surprise you to learn I don't follow a single one of those positions, because each one is a caricature of what you think I might say.

People living in a certain space have the right to interact with that space to any extent they wish, so long as it does not directly infringe on the other people there.

So a christian living in Saudi Arabia has every right to practice their customs there. A muslim living in Switzerland has every right to practice their customs there.

The Saudis prevent the christians from doing so. Therefore they are intolerant and regressive.

The Swiss have taken a step towards preventing muslims from doing so. Therefore they are intolerant and regressive. Obviously not to the same extent, but the two are now one step closer to eachother.

Ordinary muslims in Switzerland, in their vast majority, do not infringe directly on the rights of christians. Therefore there is a massive, massive qualitative difference between them and the Saudi leaders who are, indeed, intolerant and regressive.

That is as easy as first grade arithmetic. I do appreciate you clawing for relativism wherever you can find it as some kind of gotcha, but there is none here, I'm afraid.

As for the colours; the point of tolerance is that it is not simply "one thing" to be taken over. By definition, a "tolerant" society cannot be represented in an analogy by a perfectly pure colour. Now: if you were to say, it's like adding a lot of green, say, to a Jackson Pollock painting that already has a million different colours on it, you'd have a point. But unless you regard muslims as a homogenous mass- which they obviously aren't- then you can't say that you are adding only one colour to it. If seven muslims arrive in the UK, the chances are high that I have added seven different colours, rather than seven splashes of one colour.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:46 pm 
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rio wrote:
cry of the banshee wrote:
The colors were not used as anything other than a metaphor for how one thing can become something else if that thing is influenced and taken over by an outside factor, c'mon , man, did you really not see that? It's as simple as first grade addition.

Let me ask you this: If a certain segment of a non-Western country was adamant about keeping the West's handprint off of their landscape, would you agree with that desire to maintain their own countries unique identity and culture?
And if you happen to support that, why is it "intolerant" when the same sentiment is reciprocated in the West?
Or perhaps you feel that the West has every right to impose itself on the Muslim world?
Why should the West bend over while the rest of the world is allowed to maintain their unique identity?
Or is the Muslim world simply intolerant and regressive?
Which brings us back to the question: if they ARE intolerant and regressive (in your view), why would you want them in your homeland to begin with, influencing your culture and society?
So, which is it?


Well, it may surprise you to learn I don't follow a single one of those positions, because each one is a caricature of what you think I might say.

People living in a certain space have the right to interact with that space to any extent they wish, so long as it does not directly infringe on the other people there.

So a christian living in Saudi Arabia has every right to practice their customs there. A muslim living in Switzerland has every right to practice their customs there.

The Saudis prevent the christians from doing so. Therefore they are intolerant and regressive.

The Swiss have taken a step towards preventing muslims from doing so. Therefore they are intolerant and regressive. Obviously not to the same extent, but the two are now one step closer to eachother.

Ordinary muslims in Switzerland, in their vast majority, do not infringe directly on the rights of christians. Therefore there is a massive, massive qualitative difference between them and the Saudi leaders who are, indeed, intolerant and regressive.

That is as easy as first grade arithmetic. I do appreciate you clawing for relativism wherever you can find it as some kind of gotcha, but there is none here, I'm afraid.

As for the colours; the point of tolerance is that it is not simply "one thing" to be taken over. By definition, a "tolerant" society cannot be represented in an analogy by a perfectly pure colour. Now: if you were to say, it's like adding a lot of green, say, to a Jackson Pollock painting that already has a million different colours on it, you'd have a point. But unless you regard muslims as a homogenous mass- which they obviously aren't- then you can't say that you are adding only one colour to it. If seven muslims arrive in the UK, the chances are high that I have added seven different colours, rather than seven splashes of one colour.


Fair enough, but apparently the Swiss have decided that minarets are an imposition. So, the ban should be respected, whether or not it is agreeable to some.
My point is every group of people has the right to maintain their identity and culture without being labelled as intolerant and the like.

Sorry to dissapoint you, but I wasn't trying for a "gotcha" type snag... I was trying to figure out where you get your convictions from, or rather, trying to follow your logic.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:55 pm 
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Of course, I agree that the ban should be acknowledged and followed. But like I said before, it does not follow that it should not be criticised.

My logic is relatively simple though. It is "liberal" logic, but not in the Carter sense. More in the classical philosophical sense. So everything I have said here abides by the maxim "do what you want, so long as it doesn't infringe upon others". Given that I can't see how minarets infringe on others, that maxim applies here. This is really where I get my convictions from, in matters of society and religion, at least.

EDIT: But, that conviction is trumped by my belief in authentic democracy. Hence: I accept the right of the swiss to make the ban, but I think they have done the wrong thing in doing so.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:04 pm 
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rio wrote:
Of course, I agree that the ban should be acknowledged and followed. But like I said before, it does not follow that it should not be criticised.

My logic is relatively simple though. It is "liberal" logic, but not in the Carter sense. More in the classical philosophical sense. So everything I have said here abides by the maxim "do what you want, so long as it doesn't infringe upon others". Given that I can't see how minarets infringe on others, that maxim applies here. This is really where I get my convictions from, in matters of society and religion, at least.

EDIT: But, that conviction is trumped by my belief in authentic democracy. Hence: I accept the right of the swiss to make the ban, but I think they have done the wrong thing in doing so.


No harm done, what's a little political point / counterpoint between a couple of old campaigners?
Haha, still friends, right?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:05 pm 
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Heh, of course. It's livened up the evening, no mistake.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:06 pm 
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rio wrote:
Heh, of course. It's livened up the evening, no mistake.


:D


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:01 pm 
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Spent most of today reading up on Discordianism. Basics:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discordianism

Seems pretty cool.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:41 am 
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Bump.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/ja ... agellation

Catholics, huh. Whipping yourself = closer to god. :wacko:


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:18 am 
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Goat wrote:
Bump.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/ja ... agellation

Catholics, huh. Whipping yourself = closer to god. :wacko:


Taking a line from the Flagellant's handbook,eh?
Well, why not? The whole premise of Catholicism is based on Man being a base, venal sinner in need of external salvation... seems like blood, pain, guilt and Catholicism are a marriage made in Heaven.
For every sadist, there is a masochist; apparently John Paul II enjoyed the best of both worlds.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 2:31 pm 
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A lot of monks do that same kind of thing, because they believe too much "fun" leads to increased wickedness. In other words, they believe a certain degree of suffering brings one closer to God.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:36 am 
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Took that Beliefnets quiz thing again.

Quote:
1. Unitarian Universalism (100%)
2. Secular Humanism (87%)
3. Liberal Quakers (85%)
4. Neo-Pagan (81%)
5. New Age (77%)
6. Theravada Buddhism (75%)
7. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (72%)
8. Mahayana Buddhism (69%)
9. Taoism (68%)
10. Scientology (61%)
11. Nontheist (59%)
12. New Thought (57%)
13. Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (54%)
14. Jainism (50%)
15. Reform Judaism (50%)
16. Hinduism (49%)
17. Sikhism (45%)
18. Orthodox Quaker (43%)
19. Baha'i Faith (38%)
20. Orthodox Judaism (23%)
21. Islam (21%)
22. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (21%)
23. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (20%)
24. Seventh Day Adventist (18%)
25. Eastern Orthodox (13%)
26. Roman Catholic (13%)
27. Jehovah's Witness (10%)


Interesting. Never heard of Unitarian Universalism before, and certainly never thought of myself as Neo-Pagan or New Age - assuming the quiz is correct and all. Amusing that Scientology came higher than Jewdayism or Islam.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 2:04 pm 
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Quote:
1. Secular Humanism (100%)
2. Unitarian Universalism (92%)
3. Nontheist (87%)
4. Liberal Quakers (76%)
5. Theravada Buddhism (70%)
6. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (64%)
7. Neo-Pagan (62%)
8. Taoism (53%)
9. New Age (50%)
10. Reform Judaism (46%)
11. Orthodox Quaker (43%)
12. Mahayana Buddhism (40%)
13. Scientology (33%)
14. New Thought (31%)
15. Baha'i Faith (30%)
16. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (27%)
17. Sikhism (26%)
18. Jainism (26%)
19. Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (25%)
20. Seventh Day Adventist (23%)
21. Islam (20%)
22. Orthodox Judaism (20%)
23. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (18%)
24. Hinduism (10%)
25. Eastern Orthodox (10%)
26. Roman Catholic (10%)
27. Jehovah's Witness (4%)


Lol. Why is "nontheist" only 87?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 2:19 pm 
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Goat wrote:
Took that Beliefnets quiz thing again.

Quote:
1. Unitarian Universalism (100%)
2. Secular Humanism (87%)
3. Liberal Quakers (85%)
4. Neo-Pagan (81%)
5. New Age (77%)
6. Theravada Buddhism (75%)
7. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (72%)
8. Mahayana Buddhism (69%)
9. Taoism (68%)
10. Scientology (61%)
11. Nontheist (59%)
12. New Thought (57%)
13. Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (54%)
14. Jainism (50%)
15. Reform Judaism (50%)
16. Hinduism (49%)
17. Sikhism (45%)
18. Orthodox Quaker (43%)
19. Baha'i Faith (38%)
20. Orthodox Judaism (23%)
21. Islam (21%)
22. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (21%)
23. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (20%)
24. Seventh Day Adventist (18%)
25. Eastern Orthodox (13%)
26. Roman Catholic (13%)
27. Jehovah's Witness (10%)


Interesting. Never heard of Unitarian Universalism before, and certainly never thought of myself as Neo-Pagan or New Age - assuming the quiz is correct and all. Amusing that Scientology came higher than Jewdayism or Islam.


I won't get into my personal opinions of it, but: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian-Universalism

Christopher Reeve and Randy Pausch were UU's.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 2:21 pm 
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Not a fan? Where do you stand on Quakers?

Fridge wrote:
Why is "nontheist" only 87?


Maybe... there are doubts... :omfg:


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 2:24 pm 
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Goat wrote:
Not a fan? Where do you stand on Quakers?

Fridge wrote:
Why is "nontheist" only 87?


Maybe... there are doubts... :omfg:


Oh, I know. It's because I gave things like "strong importance" to questions about abortion or gay rights. They shouldn't be influenced by my religious beliefs.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 4:30 pm 
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Quote:
Not a fan? Where do you stand on Quakers?


Not really familiar enough with them to comment.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 4:38 pm 
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They've always seemed like cool peoples, as do Unitarian Universalists from what I read around on - a truly liberal, non-doctrinal religion? Take that, Dawkins!


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 4:58 pm 
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Goat wrote:
They've always seemed like cool peoples, as do Unitarian Universalists from what I read around on - a truly liberal, non-doctrinal religion? Take that, Dawkins!


I'd say that a non-doctrinal religion kind of ceases to be a religion. That's why I don't get UU, it seems like "we realize that god and morals and stuff is silly, but we need some sort of structure." Just call a spade a spade and get it over with.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 5:01 pm 
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You're too caught up with the religion is hate religion is fear religion is war thing. :P Different ideas and expectations.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 5:15 pm 
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Goat wrote:
You're too caught up with the religion is hate religion is fear religion is war thing. :P Different ideas and expectations.


Nah, it's a question of what defines a religion. If an organization without a specific belief structure, without a specific deity, and without a specific behavioural code is a religion, then any D&D meeting or comicon is more a religion than UU.

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