Metal Reviews

African music is rhytmically a lot more complex than most classical music. And some minimalism (La Monte Young's Well Tuned Piano masterpiece for example) and especially post-minimalism and totalism are more complex in terms of scales and compositions than any kind of metal you can mention. Metalheads tend to think complex = dissonant.

I actually wanted to make a new topic about this, but since the discussion has already gone this far...

What I want to know or see is: Explain to me why metal is not particularly diverse or innovative and compare and contrast that with some genres that you think are

Saying that metal primarily uses drums, guitars, etc. doesn't really seem to be very different from any other genre. We can give points and we can take them away from any genre. There are, it seems to me in any genre (correct me if I'm wrong), the few who truly innovate and/or make something of the highest quality. Then there are the many who mostly just follow in their footsteps.

Since we're talking about "metal", I think it's fair to say that in comparison to many musical styles, it's been around a relatively short time. Jazz, blues, bluegrass, folk, country, classical, and not to mention the many localized musics out there existing in less known cultures. Then there's rock, but do we want to lump rock and metal together, or is it better to separate the two? Certainly, most everyone has used the term "metal" and not focused on its many subgenres, so if anything that indicates or shows more diversity and change than if we looked at more specific subgenres.

Without going into huge detail, I would suggest that there are several elements that have been "invented" or "significantly enhanced" through metal music. Double bass drumming, alternate uses of the human voice, etc. Going back to the issue of instruments, look at many of the more innovative bands in metal and the different instruments and styles they incorporate into their sound.

Yeah, I would say that the subgenres in metal are generally really stagnant and diluted. However, look at the sheer number of subgenres and sounds (which are not only a product of instruments and songwriting, but also of recording techniques) that metal has produced in this 30 year period. I'm not concerned with the copycats in metal or any other genre, look at the innovators and the quallity artists out there...

I'm not saying I'm right or Misha is right or anyone else who has chimed in already is right or wrong. I'd just like to see some more thoughtful references and thoughts on the issue than just, "Hmm, well, Ulver has evolved...".

And lastly, and on a side note, just because someone may have heard about black or death metal doesn't mean they know anything about it or could select it in a police lineup, so to speak.

-Tyrion


-EDIT- Shit, there's been like 15 posts made since I started typing this... arrghh! *goes back to read*

btw misha, metal use's modes all the time. Pretty much every solo will be using modes. Children of bodom use about 6 different modes in each song they do.

Wow!!! Black metal to death metal zomg.
John Zorn (free jazz composer and saxophonist):
Film Music
Modern Creative
Avant-Garde Jazz
Klezmer
Modern Composition
Free Jazz
Free Improv
Grindcore
Some Bop genre and some more that I obviously forgot.
There's more of these runabouts active.

Damn, I didn't know. I can't hear that shit unfotunately. Anyways, the microtonality still stands.

Okay, this is more along the lines of what I was hoping to see someone talk about. Again though, is this a gap that will close with time? Does jazz have a decided advantage in being developed earlier? Do we necessarily take points away from metal when (and if) it makes "innovations" within itself, or do we acknowledge that is it is applying something in a new way?

That microtonality shit is pretty crazy when in the context of western music. I've never really heard it done well enough for me to actually want to listen to it other then for the 'wtf they're amzazing' factor.

Good post! I copied this part to reply to because it contains some points I'm not sure if I agree with. For as far as I know double bass drumming was already used in rock music, for short bursts of speed. I'm not sure if keeping bursts like this for longer times, which must have been part of the practise of rock drummers anyways, is to be called an innovation. Most of metal's alternate use of the human voice was already explored by the avant-garde in the early 80s. Diamanda Galás covered most vocal sounds that metal was even going to use on her Litanies Of Satan anyways.

I think most people would agree that while metal may not have been the first to use double bass pedals it was certainly the genre that took it to insane levels of speed and complexity and still continues to.

I'm not discussing points, that's personal opinion. I'm just pointing out why Jazz is broader than Metal, not if that is a good thing or not. Jazz is older, but these innovations have taken place in a timespan that is not significantly broader than Metal's existance. We're talking about what is the broadest genre anyways, not about what will be the broadest genre. I'm pretty sure jazz is going to evolve a lot further as well. There is a large drive behind experimentation in jazz you know, comming mainly from the avant-garde movement. Metal does not have such a movement, although some people speak of "avant-garde metal" it is infact just a bit alternative or progressive (prog metal is not even progressive for the largest part).

Speed? Tim Waterson is not a metaldrummer as far as I know. I get your point though, and it is valid, but I'm not too sure about the complexity part. If you think triplets or 16th note bars full of bassbassbassbassbassbass is complex, then I don't agree. I know about some jazzdrummers that worked through stick control with their feet (complex rudiments, drags, flams, etc), which is FAR more complex than anything I've ever heard a metaldrummer do with his feet, and they're long dead now.

As far as I know, Louie Bellson was the first, or among the very first, to use double bass. I know Keith Moon and Ginger Baker were among the earlier rock drummers to do it, but there were probably others. It is metal that has really pushed and developed it, however.

I think, despite what you said about the avant-garde stuff, the same could be said of metal and vocal stylings - but I may be wrong here, and I guess I'd like to hear some of what you're referring to so that I could compare. In fact, I'd like a short list of several different bands that exemplify what you have been describing throughout your posts here, if you're willing to share one.

Again, I don't think it's merely about trying something new, it's also about what you do with it when and after you do try it.

-Tyrion

Just check out ensiferum for complexity with pedals, but a rule of thumb would be, jazz drummer pwn all!! They're mathmaticians with sticks instead of paper lol

I will name the artists from now on, you already had an example with Galás.
What you do after it, in metal that usually means playing it until you die, whereas in the avant-garde, it usually means moving on to the next discovery after a few seconds, a song, album or a few albums. Example: The Shining, Mengelberg, Alvin Curran, John Zorn, enfin, just about any avant-artist.

Then we'd have to look at what jazz had done after approximately 40 years of development. I'm a bit busy now, so I can't do an in-depth comparison just yet, but hopefully I'll look into it soon, otherwise perhaps Misha will do it before me

My own prediction is that when metal is 100 years old, it won't have achieved the diversity that jazz has done now, after approximately that length of time. I base this claim simply on the fact that jazz was always inherently less rigidly defined than metal-partly because of the wide ranging nature of its component parts, partly because its raison d'etre is improvisation.

If you'll allow me to veer of into art-school pretentiousness, historically I think the fact that jazz music is generally so much more politicized than metal has an impact as well. Jazz has always been very left wing, and it is only a small step from "working men of all countries unite" to "musicians of all countries unite"- especially when you set it in the context of the US civil rights movement, which encapsulates the time period around which a lot of the most creative jazz music was being made. If you start talking about multiculturalism and diversity etc in metal circles you would probably get called a hippy fag, whilst in jazz you have to believe in those things to get by

according to himself he does in fact play in a metal band, called Aromatones. Weither or not it really could be catagorized as metal i don't know, haven't heard it.

Is there anyone that can briefly sum up a brief timeline of significant advancements in jazz (or point me to one)? It seems like a lot of advancements (not just in music) tend to come almost cyclically in microbursts that are often followed by significant periods of stagnation before the next "breakthrough". Is this the case in jazz as well or not so much? Just curious.

As for drumming, although I agree with you, Misha, I was looking specifically at double bass, and I think that’s what stuart was referring to by “complexity” as well. That doesn't really diminish my point, as my point was never that drumming, in general, in metal is more diverse or advanced than drumming in <insert genre>.

There are limitations in rock and metal that I'm not sure can ever be "overcome" that would allow the playing to reach a level of complexity and diversity that more free-form and more improvisational styles can. But that was my question in the first place – can metal “overcome” that and still be metal? Should it? But, as I said, I also was hoping to see more detail and reasoning, so thanks for adding that in.

Are there any other, notable genres (besides jazz) that spring to mind when you think of a high level of diversity?

Oh yeah, and whoever said (I think it was Misha) that most “progressive” stuff, particularly in metal really isn’t progressive, I completely agree and wish more people would realize that. While there are other factors, I think a lot of people incorrectly associate relative complexity and technical playing with being progressive.

-Tyrion

... and you tend to take one piece of a whole and scale it up and talk about it as being general some african music may be more complex, i don't know, but it doesn't really matter either. I'm talking about the birth of music (tribal music which happens to be african) and i can hardly think of that as being more complex than classic music, especially because it started solely with clapping the hands. Besides, i'd say it's a lot harder to put the "right" notes/melodies together with various instruments than making rythms with drums... and when i say "classic", i mostly mean the good ol' classic symphonies etc, not that much of piano plays etc ( i put in the "etc" to make myself sound more clever).
you and i may not have the same opinion on the word complex, he he .. and do note that i use the words "more" and "less" in that context

btw, how did the post-minimalism and totalism come into the picture?!?..

You'll need Rio for that, he's the jazz expert.


As Rio pointed out, metal is highly defined, as it originates in a subgenre of rock, yet grew to be a genre of its own. However, metal is constructed around timbre, and less around harmony, such as is case in most classical music. This makes it easy to create metal, you just need the right instrumental ingredients. Still, you're not playing metal as long as you use this timbre, as the structure and harmony are of some importance as well. Metal cannot follow the avant-garde movement of jazz, as it would become jazz, since jazz does not so much rely on a general timbre. That's why metal must come up with something entirely new, and it's only speculation of that can happen or will happen. So if you'd ask me, it's speculating about something that may exist, but has not been invented yet, like a solution to a complicated problem, it might not exist.


Modern classical music, if that is a genre to you. If it is not, then first of all: Dance Music (Dance Music? yes, Dance Music). Dub, Terror and Microsound span a plane that is way beyond metal's size.


Yes, it's annoying eh! If you write a couple of songs in 7/8 these days, you're progressive

No because I think most bands in most genres don't have the longevity as metal bands or metal bands that don't play metal anymore.

Anyways, cool discussion.