Better albums than COB's Hatebreeder ... INSTRUMENTALLY

fluffy_ferret · **Joined:** Sat Feb 05, 2005 9:21 pm **Posts:** 67

That's exactly what i said?

following the reaper wrote:

fluffy_ferret wrote:

Wasn't this a discussion about technical proficiency and not how good you think the albums actually are? ;)

Pasqua wrote:

Quote:

Wintersun is the first thing that came to mind.

I've just downloaded their first album and gave it a few spins.

It's very good, thanks for the tip, I'll keep an eye on them.

But I still think Hatebreeder is better. I don't think it's crazy to think that, just look at Hatebreeder's scores and Wintersun's, Hatebreeder got 3 100's and one 97. So if thinking Hatebreeder's better is crazy, guess I'm not the only one :lol:

One thing I have to admit, Wintersun's debut is a lot better than COB's Something Wild. So there's potential there, maybe their second could be even better. Death and the Healing is AWESOME, they have killer melodies here and there, but there are times the drum goes too fast to the point it becomes annoying. And I think Hatebreeder has a lot more catchy riffs spread throughout the songs than Wintersun's. Not only catchy, but heavy and melodic as hell.

Anyway, thanks for the tip, I loved it. Gonna check other bands mentioned here now.

Technical proficiency has nothing to do with how good an album is.

Pasqua · **Posted:** Tue Aug 29, 2006 3:43 pm

stuartn15ted wrote:

following the reaper wrote:

stuartn15ted wrote:

following the reaper wrote:

fluffy_ferret wrote:

Wasn't this a discussion about technical proficiency and not how good you think the albums actually are? ;)

Pasqua wrote:

Quote:

Wintersun is the first thing that came to mind.

I've just downloaded their first album and gave it a few spins.

It's very good, thanks for the tip, I'll keep an eye on them.

But I still think Hatebreeder is better. I don't think it's crazy to think that, just look at Hatebreeder's scores and Wintersun's, Hatebreeder got 3 100's and one 97. So if thinking Hatebreeder's better is crazy, guess I'm not the only one :lol:

One thing I have to admit, Wintersun's debut is a lot better than COB's Something Wild. So there's potential there, maybe their second could be even better. Death and the Healing is AWESOME, they have killer melodies here and there, but there are times the drum goes too fast to the point it becomes annoying. And I think Hatebreeder has a lot more catchy riffs spread throughout the songs than Wintersun's. Not only catchy, but heavy and melodic as hell.

Anyway, thanks for the tip, I loved it. Gonna check other bands mentioned here now.

Technical proficiency has nothing to do with how good an album is.

True just listen to DragonForce

If they couldnt write good music, they would suck, no matter how well they played their axes.

They can't write good music and they do suck

But seriously, very average IMHO.

Agreed, I didn't dig Dragonforce that much at my first listens. Too fast for me. Seems like they're trying to break some record instead of creating music.

I don't love Hatebreeder because it's excellent technically (it is), but because I think it has killer riffs spread throughout all the songs, riffs that are based on classical music, wihout loosing heaviness. Even the slow ones, like Bed Of Razors, that song is amazing.

I'm checking out the other bands mentioned here, and Wintersun is the one I liked the most so far.

Misha · **Posted:** Tue Aug 29, 2006 8:09 pm

Must it be metal?

Cú Chulainn · **Posted:** Tue Aug 29, 2006 8:15 pm

Misha wrote:

Must it be metal?

yes. otherwise it would be to easy to say something like Glenn Gould doing the golberg variations or something like that.

Pasqua · **Posted:** Tue Aug 29, 2006 8:33 pm

FrigidSymphony wrote:

Misha wrote:

Must it be metal?

yes. otherwise it would be to easy to say something like Glenn Gould doing the golberg variations or something like that.

Cú Chulainn · **Posted:** Tue Aug 29, 2006 8:35 pm

Pasqua wrote:

FrigidSymphony wrote:

Misha wrote:

Must it be metal?

yes. otherwise it would be to easy to say something like Glenn Gould doing the golberg variations or something like that.

seriously, there are too many totally insane classical musicians out there. I live with one..

Pasqua · **Posted:** Tue Aug 29, 2006 8:38 pm

FrigidSymphony wrote:

Pasqua wrote:

FrigidSymphony wrote:

Misha wrote:

Must it be metal?

yes. otherwise it would be to easy to say something like Glenn Gould doing the golberg variations or something like that.

seriously, there are too many totally insane classical musicians out there. I live with one..

You're right! Anyway, I love Hatebreeder exactly for its classical influences.

Cú Chulainn · **Posted:** Tue Aug 29, 2006 8:40 pm

Pasqua wrote:

FrigidSymphony wrote:

Pasqua wrote:

FrigidSymphony wrote:

Misha wrote:

Must it be metal?

yes. otherwise it would be to easy to say something like Glenn Gould doing the golberg variations or something like that.

seriously, there are too many totally insane classical musicians out there. I live with one..

You're right! Anyway, I love Hatebreeder exactly for its classical influences.

uh... i don't know hatebreeder inside out like I do SA but... I only heard like two sections that were I think mozart compositions...

noodles · **Posted:** Tue Aug 29, 2006 9:19 pm

Yeah, its kind of like saying I like Psyopus for their classical influences =\

Pasqua · **Posted:** Tue Aug 29, 2006 9:34 pm

noodles wrote:

Yeah, its kind of like saying I like Psyopus for their classical influences =\

I don't know what Psyopus sound like, but I hear lots of classical INFLUENCED riffs in Hatebreeder. Downfall's solo. Bed Of Razors has some classical influenced riffs. What about Black Widow. Hatebreeder has some excerpts. So does Towards Dead End.

I agree Hatebreeder is not the most classical influenced album out there, far from it, but the great thing is it has the perfect mix of classical and :dio:

.... lots of :dio:

rio · **Posted:** Wed Aug 30, 2006 12:47 am

In terms of technique

Jazz musicians> Classical musicians

Not only do jazz musicians have to play faster, they also have to make stuff up as they go along so you have to know a lot of techy musical details like what scale you can play over which chords etc.

stuartn15ted · **Posted:** Wed Aug 30, 2006 12:52 am

rio wrote:

In terms of technique

Jazz musicians> Classical musicians

Not only do jazz musicians have to play faster, they also have to make stuff up as they go along so you have to know a lot of techy musical details like what scale you can play over which chords etc.

I don't know about that, improv yes but playing faster?? It depends what you listen to, John Williams is insanely fast. Among the fastest i have ever seen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3kfGKPv ... 20Asturias

noodles · **Posted:** Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:05 am

I don't think you can make a definitive statement, since most classical musicians probably could improvise if they practiced at it a bunch (which they probably do)...

ps. improv is boring

rio · **Posted:** Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:19 am

noodles wrote:

ps. improv is boring

No it isn't.

And we're not talking about what they could do if they learnt, we're talking about what they do do already...

rio · **Posted:** Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:19 am

stuartn15ted wrote:

rio wrote:

In terms of technique

Jazz musicians> Classical musicians

Not only do jazz musicians have to play faster, they also have to make stuff up as they go along so you have to know a lot of techy musical details like what scale you can play over which chords etc.

I don't know about that, improv yes but playing faster?? It depends what you listen to, John Williams is insanely fast. Among the fastest i have ever seen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3kfGKPv ... 20Asturias

Well that dude is awesome but Brecker is even awesomer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEVTDeNp ... ed&search=

Ness · **Posted:** Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:27 am

rio wrote:

noodles wrote:

ps. improv is boring

No it isn't.

And we're not talking about what they could do if they learnt, we're talking about what they do do already...

So when Miles Davis was born he could instantly play improv jazz? He practiced improve, b/c jazz focuses more on it. If classical music focused more on improv I’m sure there would be classical musicians who could improvise, but it doesn't, so there aren’t any.

stuartn15ted · **Posted:** Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:30 am

rio wrote:

stuartn15ted wrote:

rio wrote:

In terms of technique

Jazz musicians> Classical musicians

Not only do jazz musicians have to play faster, they also have to make stuff up as they go along so you have to know a lot of techy musical details like what scale you can play over which chords etc.

I don't know about that, improv yes but playing faster?? It depends what you listen to, John Williams is insanely fast. Among the fastest i have ever seen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3kfGKPv ... 20Asturias

Well that dude is awesome but Brecker is even awesomer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEVTDeNp ... ed&search=

I really enjoyed that vid, they're pretty dam good!

But its very difficult to compare classical with Jazz. Two very different types of music that are both technically very difficult to play.

rio · **Posted:** Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:37 am

metalNESS wrote:

rio wrote:

noodles wrote:

ps. improv is boring

No it isn't.

And we're not talking about what they could do if they learnt, we're talking about what they do do already...

So when Miles Davis was born he could instantly play improv jazz? He practiced improve, b/c jazz focuses more on it. If classical music focused more on improv I’m sure there would be classical musicians who could improvise, but it doesn't, so there aren’t any.

Right, and improvisation at the highest level frequently involves a larger amount of technical ability than the equivalent in classical music. Irrespective of whether classical musicians could do it with practice, the fact is that they don't practice it so they can't. I'm not sure what you mean here.

rio · **Posted:** Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:40 am

stuartn15ted wrote:

rio wrote:

stuartn15ted wrote:

rio wrote:

In terms of technique

Jazz musicians> Classical musicians

Not only do jazz musicians have to play faster, they also have to make stuff up as they go along so you have to know a lot of techy musical details like what scale you can play over which chords etc.

I don't know about that, improv yes but playing faster?? It depends what you listen to, John Williams is insanely fast. Among the fastest i have ever seen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3kfGKPv ... 20Asturias

Well that dude is awesome but Brecker is even awesomer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEVTDeNp ... ed&search=

I really enjoyed that vid, they're pretty dam good!

But its very difficult to compare classical with Jazz. Two very different types of music that are both technically very difficult to play.

Yeah, it is unfair to compare really. But jazz always takes it for me because of the mental agility involved as well. You're not just reading notes, you're reading vague chord symbols and instantly having to think of a whole load of different patterns that could fit over it.

Ness · **Posted:** Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:48 am

rio wrote:

metalNESS wrote:

rio wrote:

noodles wrote:

ps. improv is boring

No it isn't.

And we're not talking about what they could do if they learnt, we're talking about what they do do already...

So when Miles Davis was born he could instantly play improv jazz? He practiced improve, b/c jazz focuses more on it. If classical music focused more on improv I’m sure there would be classical musicians who could improvise, but it doesn't, so there aren’t any.

Right, and improvisation at the highest level frequently involves a larger amount of technical ability than the equivalent in classical music. Irrespective of whether classical musicians could do it with practice, the fact is that they don't practice it so they can't. I'm not sure what you mean here.

I get that a lot. :lol:

You said

Quote:

And we're not talking about what they could do if they learnt, we're talking about what they do already...

I was saying, ok if they learned how to play improv I'm sure they could. You can't say classical musicians can't do it, if they practiced I'm sure some of them could. However, they have no need to b/c the genre itself doesn't concentrate on improvisation. Make any sense? :wacko:

[/quote]

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