Metal Reviews

Perhaps some adequate definition of the word innovator is necessary, but as the Norwegian scene had largely defined the shape of bm, Emperor came to mind as one of the most innovative bands. When Darkthrone had defined the grim and the quintessential black metal sound, it was Emperor who introduced a level of technicality and classical elements into the music. Do you see Emperor's influence matching the likes of Mayhem and Darkthrone, or do you see the bands success as largely temporal?

If you see Emperor as being solely influential to symphonic shit like CoF or Dimmu then you wouldn't see them as more influential but I think as influential as Darkthrone is in terms of just grim bm Emperor has them beat.

Yeah, because COF and Dimmu are the sole examples of "symphonic shit".

It's difficult to place Emperor in the whole hierarchy/typology of second wave Norwegian black metal. It's certain they can be credited for creating the sub-subgenre of symphonic bm, but that's not something they should be congratulated for.

They're odd like their immediate contemporaries Arcturus are. Their oddness stems from their professionalism, in my opinion. I still believe I haven't heard a 1995 second wave album, or a 1997 one, that breathes the same attention to detail that ITNS or Anthems does, or better.

As for innovation, it's contested. You're saying Darkthrone is quintessential for the grim sound, but I'm thinking even the trilogy albums are punky and thus fun. Some of the Anthems songs are much more dissonant and evil sounding than anything on ABitNS, far as I'm concerned. Then again, what is black metal?

You have to concede that most keyboard-heavy black metal is shit, though.

There are a list of symphonic shit bands which is as long as if not longer than the list of good, i.e., Limbonic Art and, and, and....

I don't dig Darkthrone much so I shouldn't speak of them...

I swear Cotb and I had this conversation before, Karma was involved too. Essentially, as Karma noted, we all love Emperor for what they were, but I would not credit them with much influence. Enslaved actually ended up with far more.

Emperor at least gets credit for Limbonic Art.

I hate everything Emperor did after INTS. Here's why:

1. Loss of grim production, killing the effect of the guitar lines.

2. This also put Ihsahn's terribly average vocals audibly in the mix.

3. Emphasis sliding towards keyboard melodies and away from guitars.

4. Increasing prog-rock influence (Some can make it work, some can't)

5. Shit cover art.

6. Influenced shit symphonic bm bands.

^^ You are on thin ice, bro.

And I don't even understand how one could objectively make point #3.

Well in ITNS the melodies come from layers of tremolo picked guitars primarily, but on later albums the most prominent melody lines/leads are the keyboards.

Ok, I understand what you are saying now, took me a while to get it.

Still on thin ice, though.

Well, I'm not saying it's total rubbish, just average. Probably about a 60-65 for all the albums after ITNS.

Which might be ok except that ITNS is easily a 90+ album. I just feel like post-ITNS they stripped out everything that made Emperor great.

You are just digging yourself a bigger hole.

I can appreciate IX Equilibrium-bashing, but Anthems especially is a masterpiece.

I can tolerate Prometheus bashing, but Anthems especially is a masterpiece and Equilibrium is fucking awesome.

All emperor is really fucking good if you ask me.

Right on.

How can you not like Decrystallizing Reason, or Empty?

Well empty contains everything I dislike about later Emperor, the guitars are too techy for my liking, Ihsahn sounds like he's wheezing rather than rasping, the keyboards are overbearing and hold a lot of the melody, and the drums are produced to sound loud and clicky, while the guitars are super crunchy.

I know that some of those things are basically a formula for modern metal success, but I prefer Emperor when the guitars are fuzzed out masses noise.

There is no metal band I have more respect for than Emperor. Like most people, Nightside Eclipse is my favorite album of theirs. When they did black metal they were up there with all the other black metal greats.

However, I liked their version of technical black/death more than any technical black/death I've ever heard too. Emperor's song structures were always varied and suitably complex, and their guitar styles and phrasings still sound unlike anything I've ever heard. And their influence on the Dimmu Borgirs of the world is overstated; for example, Emperor borrowed far more from death metal than Dimmu ever did.