Holy Terror - Mind Wars (#7200)

MetalStorm · **Posted:** Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:30 pm

Holy_Terror wrote:

How this is not a classic is beyond me. All this crap about influence and being representative of he era is superfluous nonsense. It is an unmistakable attempt to make something more intellectual then it needs to be. The album is one of the best ever and no band has ever come close to matching its melody, speed, complexity, and ferocity. In short, it is a heavy metal classic.

Being influential suggests being highly visible. Visibility is achieved either through commercial success or by someyhing being so awesome that everyone knows about it. Unfortunately for the latter, it takes many many years to accomplish and occurs at the expense of influence. I doubt there is anyone here who would deny classic status to Blind Guardian's "Tales from the Twighlight World.". Yet when that album came out, it wasn't influential nor representative of how the era sounded. It piggy backed on a sound created by Helloween and Satan and was very mich an underground sensation. Mind Wars in my estimation achieved the same level of underground fame. Unfortunately for Holy Terror they were all heroin addicts and didn't make another album. If they had lasted as long as Blind Guardian maybe we wouldn't be having this discussion. In any event, the album wasn't a commercial success no highly visible at the time, but hopefully you will all see that those things don't and shouldn't matter. It is an amazing album that is still amazing today, ergo, it is a classic.

Geez a member with Holy Terror as his name thinks this is a classic who would have thunk :blink:

cry of the banshee · **Posted:** Sat Jun 25, 2011 9:49 pm

Holy_Terror wrote:

How this is not a classic is beyond me. All this crap about influence and being representative of he era is superfluous nonsense. It is an unmistakable attempt to make something more intellectual then it needs to be. The album is one of the best ever and no band has ever come close to matching its melody, speed, complexity, and ferocity. In short, it is a heavy metal classic.

Being influential suggests being highly visible. Visibility is achieved either through commercial success or by someyhing being so awesome that everyone knows about it. Unfortunately for the latter, it takes many many years to accomplish and occurs at the expense of influence. I doubt there is anyone here who would deny classic status to Blind Guardian's "Tales from the Twighlight World.". Yet when that album came out, it wasn't influential nor representative of how the era sounded. It piggy backed on a sound created by Helloween and Satan and was very mich an underground sensation. Mind Wars in my estimation achieved the same level of underground fame. Unfortunately for Holy Terror they were all heroin addicts and didn't make another album. If they had lasted as long as Blind Guardian maybe we wouldn't be having this discussion. In any event, the album wasn't a commercial success no highly visible at the time, but hopefully you will all see that those things don't and shouldn't matter. It is an amazing album that is still amazing today, ergo, it is a classic.

Obviously that's merely your opinion.
Just because an album is good, or even very good, doesn't make it a classic... if that were the case each and every single Death album would be one.

It's a good album, but it doesn't live up to the hype everybody (mostly youngsters) seems to lavish upon this and their other album. To hear people talk, you'd think it's the greatest metal album ever.

Coroner - Punishment For Decadence, for example is at least as good, and I'd go so far as to say better. And it's a bona-fide Classic.
I'm sure if I were so inclined and if I actually cared enough to think on it, I could name some more.

The reasons that an album such as Transylvanian Hunger is a Classic, are the same reasons this is not.

The Annoying Frenchman · **Posted:** Sat Jun 25, 2011 10:05 pm

cry of the banshee wrote:

Coroner - Punishment For Decadence, for example is at least as good, and I'd go so far as to say better. And it's a bona-fide Classic.

Music to my ears.

cry of the banshee · **Posted:** Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:42 pm

The Annoying Frenchman wrote:

cry of the banshee wrote:

Coroner - Punishment For Decadence, for example is at least as good, and I'd go so far as to say better. And it's a bona-fide Classic.

Music to my ears.

Well, it's true.

Holy_Terror · **Posted:** Sun Jun 26, 2011 6:39 am

That is a conclusory statement with no argument to back it up. Why is it a bona fide classic and mind wars isnt?

cry of the banshee · **Posted:** Sun Jun 26, 2011 6:25 pm

Holy_Terror wrote:

That is a conclusory statement with no argument to back it up. Why is it a bona fide classic and mind wars isnt?

It's not an argument that is quantified logically. It is intuitive (as just about all music and it's appreciation is) and based on having been listening to this stuff for over thirty years.

Let me ask you this.
If you had to choose only one as a classic and the choices were Kreator - Pleasure To Kill and Holy Terror - Mind Wars, which would be the true classic?
And why?

Also, note that nobody here has really given this thead any particular notice... what does that tell you?

Holy_Terror · **Posted:** Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:57 am

This is a totally loaded question as it turns on how you define what a classic is. Clearly our definitions differ to the point where this is a pointless discussion. In any event, I'd go with Kreator.

cry of the banshee · **Posted:** Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:35 am

Holy_Terror wrote:

In any event, I'd go with Kreator.

Why?

stevelovesmoonspell · **Posted:** Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:36 pm

I think this is an issue that I tried at length to address on the prior page, with the issue unresolved though expounded upon and has some concordance on with the rest of the metal scene. Has Mind wars inspired a great deal as many bands as Kreator, of course the answer is a no. But has the album outshined many other lesser bands such as Zoetrope and Wargasm, in terms of the underground with even the former bands having released quality albums who much like Holy Terrror, have not received their due credit, yes. I believe both bands to have released classics, with Kreator's having earned their place as genre defining albums whereas HT'S have received the status as underground classic.

COTB'S Argumentum ad populum holds some credibility whereas it warrants Kreator's influence on the thrash scene, which even at length is debatable as mainly thrash bands opting for the brutal sound credit them as influence. I hope this post helps.

AlexandeR · **Posted:** Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:50 pm

stevelovesmoonspell wrote:

underground classic.

I'll have peace on those terms.

Holy_Terror · **Posted:** Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:18 am

cry of the banshee wrote:

Holy_Terror wrote:

In any event, I'd go with Kreator.

Why?

Kreator's Pleasure to Kill is more of an undeniable classic than Holy Terror's Mind Wars for the simple reason that not as many people would deny Pleasure to Kill is a classic as would deny that Mind Wars is.

This of course does not mean that I think Pleasure to Kill is better. It is not. In fact, musically it is far inferior in all areas save sheer brutality. In every other category, Holy Terror is a better band and has released better albums.

Do I agree in distinguishing between underground classic and normal classic? I don't know yet. I'll just say that I think Mind Wars is a classic because it was a great album when it came out, and remains a great album to this day. It is a classic in that it is a high water mark for the thrash metal genre and has not been topped since.

cry of the banshee · **Posted:** Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:05 am

Holy_Terror wrote:

cry of the banshee wrote:

Holy_Terror wrote:

In any event, I'd go with Kreator.

Why?

Kreator's Pleasure to Kill is more of an undeniable classic than Holy Terror's Mind Wars for the simple reason that not as many people would deny Pleasure to Kill is a classic as would deny that Mind Wars is.

This of course does not mean that I think Pleasure to Kill is better. It is not. In fact, musically it is far inferior in all areas save sheer brutality. In every other category, Holy Terror is a better band and has released better albums.

Do I agree in distinguishing between underground classic and normal classic? I don't know yet. I'll just say that I think Mind Wars is a classic because it was a great album when it came out, and remains a great album to this day. It is a classic in that it is a high water mark for the thrash metal genre and has not been topped since.

Fair enough.
We'll just have to disagree I guess.

Holy_Terror · **Posted:** Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:52 am

cry of the banshee wrote:

Holy_Terror wrote:

cry of the banshee wrote:

Holy_Terror wrote:

In any event, I'd go with Kreator.

Why?

Kreator's Pleasure to Kill is more of an undeniable classic than Holy Terror's Mind Wars for the simple reason that not as many people would deny Pleasure to Kill is a classic as would deny that Mind Wars is.

This of course does not mean that I think Pleasure to Kill is better. It is not. In fact, musically it is far inferior in all areas save sheer brutality. In every other category, Holy Terror is a better band and has released better albums.

Respectfully of course.

Do I agree in distinguishing between underground classic and normal classic? I don't know yet. I'll just say that I think Mind Wars is a classic because it was a great album when it came out, and remains a great album to this day. It is a classic in that it is a high water mark for the thrash metal genre and has not been topped since.

Fair enough.
We'll just have to disagree I guess.

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Holy Terror - Mind Wars (#7200)

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