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 Post subject: Pagan\'s Mind - Enigmatic: Calling (#2904)
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:52 am 
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Pagan\'s Mind - Enigmatic: Calling
Progressive Metal
Quoted: 65 / 100


Click here to see the review.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 12:01 pm 
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Metal King

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65 only because of the lack of progression ?
I don't know what to say Ben.This review is...well i just do not agree with you on this one.What about the added thrash influence in the new album ? The songs are more complex and diverse than ever, but still manages to keep those awesome melodies that Celestial Entrance had.
This review is one of your weakest.It lacks a good validity and you rely to much on their previous record.

I'm sorry but i felt obliged to tell you this not because i like Pagan's Mind in general, but because your statement was not convincing enough.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 12:17 pm 
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On the other hand I agree totally with what Ben has said. I sat through this CD twice and it's soulless and uninventive. Certainly well played technically, but that's not enough in and of itself..

I appreciate that Progressive Metal is experimental to a far lesser degree than Prog Rock, but this is practically cliche. I don't know where the term progressive metal came from but it needs to go away again.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 12:31 pm 
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Ist Krieg
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I completely disagree. I bought this cd b/c of all the talk, and now I am a Pagan's Mind fan b/c of it. 89/100 for me.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 1:01 pm 
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Svartalfar

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I think with reviews like this, they are really hard to score. Is it a 65 in absolute terms? I think not, since some of the albums that have gotten a 65 on this site are pretty forgettable and don't even come close to Pagan's Mind. I think Ben considers this a 65 by Pagan's Mind standards and based on his expectations. I would personally give it an 80, but I understand Ben's point.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:02 pm 
65 to be different... I respect that.

Wait, no I don't! :roll:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:20 pm 
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Metal Servant

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Interesting Ben. I liked their last one but never was blown away by it like many were. This album however I was blown away by!

For me it is tied with Nevermore TGE for my album of the year so far! IMO Pagan's Mind really tightened their arrangements and the songwriting is a lot more focused. Not to mention the extra heaviness kicks these songs up even more. No Pagan's Mind did not re-invent theirselves they just perfected their craft. Things I found to be lacking on the previous album I sure don't hear in this one.

I respect everone's opinion though and am surprised at how everyone's ears hear things differently. Put it this way, I would not have considered myself a fan of Pagan's Mind before but I definately am now after this album.

Brillant Album 97/100!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:22 pm 
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Anthony Brock wrote:
65 to be different... I respect that.

Wait, no I don't! :roll:


that's a curious position for someone who rates NiME at around 5/100 to take


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:30 pm 
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Einherjar

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The rating system on this site is just fucked up. I don't like this album as much as their previous but it is still great. So are the ratings compared to their other releases or compared to the rating system or compared to all albums and music in genereal or what? Fuck ratings.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:44 pm 
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Metal King

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Orion wrote:
The rating system on this site is just fucked up. I don't like this album as much as their previous but it is still great. So are the ratings compared to their other releases or compared to the rating system or compared to all albums and music in genereal or what? Fuck ratings.


I don't think the major problem here is the rating system.The score is the last thing i take notice of (well technically it's the first thing to notice but i didn't mean it this way).It can be "wrong" at times.For example if someone unacquainted with Pagan's Mind came here and only looked at the score, he would probably say "Hm, this is average stuff.I'll check it when i have time (usually that's never).
It's true the album doesn't hold to Celestial Entrance but it's still a quality album deserving some recognition.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:57 pm 
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When you people that give everything that is even remotely good a score in the nineties read a review in say BWBK and the reviewer gives it a 7 ouit of 10 or a 6 out of 10, do you complain to them that that is a bad score? A 65 means this is a FAIR album it has solid musicians and the potential is there, however it just isnt realized. Its a rehash from the previous outing and that is exact opposite of what Progressive Metal should stand for. How can I give an album a higher than fair score when its nothing but thinly warmed over leavings ? Again, everyone here claims the ratings is fucked. Metal Marc, I'm not picking on you but since you were the first to give a nineties quote I'm using this as an example: I consider Painkiller, Number of the Beast, and Keeper II one hundreds in the metal scene. Those albums have inspired hundreds of musicians to form their own bands and make music based solely on hearing those albums years ago, hell even today there's kids sitting around hearing Eagle FLy Free or Leather Rebel for the first time and its making them want to play an instrument. Are you telling me that 15, 20 years from now people will look back at Enigmatic: Calling in the same regard as these metal milestones? Do you honestly believe that because of this album, a horde of impressionable young kids will want to form their own bands? My answer is of course, no.

Another question I want to pose is that how many truly great albums do you think get released in a year? When it comes to metal the incredible is few and far between and the mundane and mediocre is constant. This album is one of those that will please many fans who want a slick sounding and safe Prog album but it wont make more than a ripple in the metal waters over time. Get the new Beyond Twilight and Redemption albums instead.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:11 pm 
I'd give it an 85, seeing as it's a great album.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:55 pm 
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Metal Servant

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Ben@MetalReviews wrote:
When you people that give everything that is even remotely good a score in the nineties read a review in say BWBK and the reviewer gives it a 7 ouit of 10 or a 6 out of 10, do you complain to them that that is a bad score? A 65 means this is a FAIR album it has solid musicians and the potential is there, however it just isnt realized. Its a rehash from the previous outing and that is exact opposite of what Progressive Metal should stand for. How can I give an album a higher than fair score when its nothing but thinly warmed over leavings ? Again, everyone here claims the ratings is fucked. Metal Marc, I'm not picking on you but since you were the first to give a nineties quote I'm using this as an example: I consider Painkiller, Number of the Beast, and Keeper II one hundreds in the metal scene. Those albums have inspired hundreds of musicians to form their own bands and make music based solely on hearing those albums years ago, hell even today there's kids sitting around hearing Eagle FLy Free or Leather Rebel for the first time and its making them want to play an instrument. Are you telling me that 15, 20 years from now people will look back at Enigmatic: Calling in the same regard as these metal milestones? Do you honestly believe that because of this album, a horde of impressionable young kids will want to form their own bands? My answer is of course, no.

Another question I want to pose is that how many truly great albums do you think get released in a year? When it comes to metal the incredible is few and far between and the mundane and mediocre is constant. This album is one of those that will please many fans who want a slick sounding and safe Prog album but it wont make more than a ripple in the metal waters over time. Get the new Beyond Twilight and Redemption albums instead.


No I don't think people will look back on this album or any album as a milestone anymore. The roads have already been paved. Even a super original band like Nevermore can't at this point.

However Edguy 'Hellfire Club' recieved a perfect 100 on this site and Edguy has no originality whatsoever? As cookie cutter as metal can get. That album is worth about 76 IMO. 76 still means it's a good album right?

I understand your point about overating albums. Honestly I only have heard about 3 albums this year that I would rate in the 90's. So I don't just give out high scores lightly. In fact most albums reviewed on this site in general have a higher rating than I would give them.

I don't think judging by the ratings on this site that an album has to have historical impact to achieve a score in the 90's. Case in point Pyramaze recieved a score of 97 last year by I think you Ben. I happen to agree with that score as it was my personal fav album of 2004 too. But do you honestly believe people will look back at Melencholy Beast as an all time classic? Do you honestly believe that because of this album, a horde of impressionable young kids will want to form their own bands?

FYI...I personally don't have any problem with the rating system. I think it works well keeping in mind everone has there own opinion. I think it's great of MetalReviews to let everbody else cast their vote and feedback too!

Peace.........


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 4:06 pm 
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Metal King
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Well I both agree and disagree with Ben. I agree that it isn't that different compared to Celestial Entrance and Ben has probably heard many albums more than me and rank originality as more important than I do, but i can't agree with the quote. IMO, this album blows Octavarium far, far away and over the hills. Celestial Entrance was a great album and this one is almost as good.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 4:19 pm 
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Metal Marc,

A 76 from you for Hellfire Club is definitely a good score, nothing wrong with that at all. And yes I do believe that years from now, especially if Pyramaze can continue to evolve and produce music as stellar as the debut, Melancholy Beast will go down as a landmark metal album. Chances are, I am in the minority in thinking this, but only time will tell. Like I said earlier, sorry if it seemed I was ragging on you specifically, that wasnt my intention.

As for Octavarium being better... thats a hard case to call. While I only like three songs on the album, those three songs show signs of expansion, deviation from previous sounds, musical exploration and they take up close to forty minutes which is as long as some albums. The reason why I am so hard on this album is because of the fact that this is PROGRESSIVE METAL. Forward thinking, doing the unexpected, being ORIGINAL are important facets of any genre but in Prog metal these are mandatory. As LizardTail said this is basically cliche which is not what Prog is about at all. Again, listen to the new Beyond Twilight for an example of a fantastic Prog Metal album then come back to this. You'll see the difference is like night and day.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 4:35 pm 
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Metal Slave
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89/100 for me :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 6:24 pm 
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Metal Servant

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Ben@MetalReviews wrote:
Metal Marc,

A 76 from you for Hellfire Club is definitely a good score, nothing wrong with that at all. And yes I do believe that years from now, especially if Pyramaze can continue to evolve and produce music as stellar as the debut, Melancholy Beast will go down as a landmark metal album. Chances are, I am in the minority in thinking this, but only time will tell. Like I said earlier, sorry if it seemed I was ragging on you specifically, that wasnt my intention.

As for Octavarium being better... thats a hard case to call. While I only like three songs on the album, those three songs show signs of expansion, deviation from previous sounds, musical exploration and they take up close to forty minutes which is as long as some albums. The reason why I am so hard on this album is because of the fact that this is PROGRESSIVE METAL. Forward thinking, doing the unexpected, being ORIGINAL are important facets of any genre but in Prog metal these are mandatory. As LizardTail said this is basically cliche which is not what Prog is about at all. Again, listen to the new Beyond Twilight for an example of a fantastic Prog Metal album then come back to this. You'll see the difference is like night and day.


I really don't think Pagan's Mind is a true prog band or claim to be. The description that came on the album is Power/Prog. I tend to agree and think there is more emphasis on the power than prog side to there music. They just incorperate some prog tendancies to keep it interesting.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:26 pm 
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Metal King

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Metal Marc wrote:
I really don't think Pagan's Mind is a true prog band or claim to be. The description that came on the album is Power/Prog. I tend to agree and think there is more emphasis on the power than prog side to there music. They just incorperate some prog tendancies to keep it interesting.


I agree that it is power/prog not that it is important anymore.
But i think that it isn't fair Ben to be so hard on this album for only the fact that they haven't evolved much.I mean it's not only the prog metal that is evaluated on the originality scale, it's all genres (power, heavy, melodeath and all others).Many unoriginal power metal albums get higher scores (i say again it's not the score that matters) and most of those aren't even as good technicaly as Pagan's Mind.You said it yourself the production is great, the musicians are great and the lyrics are great.If the songs are great but sound similar to those of the previous album...well i see nothing bad.It may not get a perfect score, since i rate this 85 and Celestial Entrance 96, but it's still great release and people should know this.
I know you won't change your mind, or the score, or the review so it's like they say "a word spoke is past recalling".
I enjoyed this album, that is what matters most.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:21 am 
When you took 3 hours out of your day to listen to these albums, were you playing World Of Warcraft or something? Were you hunting for Mithril deposits, preoccupied with an Orc invasion?

Not that playing World Of Warcraft is bad—I just bought it myself—but I definitely don't agree with a rating of 65. This album is definitely a step forward from their previous releases. It's a nice solid mix of Celestial Entrance's progressive power metal elements, and Infinity Divine's heavier more traditional metal approach, only this time packaged with better songs.

Rue's voice can occassionally strike a note that irks me, but even that is a rare instance on this new album. I'd definitely give this album an 85, at the least.

And how progressive can a band actually be?? I mean, this is the band's third album and this review almost suggests that they should be a completely different band by now. Let's not take the word "progressive" literally here. Progressive is just a term to describe a STYLE of music! It does not describe what the music should actually be doing! That's just ridiculous. Have Dream Theater changed much over the years?? Not really. They've experimented a bit here and there, but on the whole they've always been Dream Theater, and easily identifiable. Yet, the general concensus here is that Dream Theater is amazing (agreed)!! How many albums do they have now?? Going by the philophosy of truly being "progressive" by progressing (i.e. changing, evolving) in style, Dream Theater should be playing folk music by now!

The funny thing is, if these bands did come out and completely progressed into something different, most fans would complain.


Last edited by Eyesore on Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:45 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:40 am 
Interesting discussion. The weird part is despite how much I like Celestial Entrance, and btw I stand by that score, I still listen to the CD and certain songs on a weekly basis and I reviewed that over a year ago I think, I haven't really sat down and given the new CD much of a listen. Listened to the first two songs and nothing grabbed me, but then again same thing happened with Celestial Entrance.


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