Metal Reviews

I disagree. I'd probably call myself and agnostic and I am not sitting on any fence. I find the idea of the Christian God as unlikely as I do your magic lemon tree. I find it quite insulting sometimes that God in the Western world is seen as fact but the gods of Hinduism, for example, are seen as nothing but superstition/tradition. But this does not mean that I fully disbelieve the presence of a 'higher' being. As I've said before, it is the concept of divinity that I have a problem with. There may indeed be something else in the universe that is to us what we are to ants. But if there really is such a being or beings so much bigger than us, they'd have to be pretty insecure to expect worship from creatures so insignificant.

But I'm digressing. What I'm trying to say is that agnosticism is not always indecision, just keeping an open mind. It's not like I'm sitting saying "I probably don't beleive in God, but I better keep my options open so I don't piss him off."

Sure... In fact I also think it's a probability that there are more advanced beings than us in the universe- although clearly so far away as to be utterly insignificant as far as humans are concernded. I should clarify that when I say "agnostic" I mean people that are undecided about organised religion- not the general prinicple of a superior intelligence. But as far as Christianity/Islam/Hinduism/Judaism etc is concerned, there need be no open mind. We can discount it.

The point is that saying that all Christians are just trying to convince themselves there is a God is almost as ridiculous as saying all Atheist metal fans are Atheists because a lot of metal bands are Atheists. I didn't at all say this was necessarily the case with you. That was really just my way of saying, "Believe what you believe, but also have some tolerance for the people who may disagree with you." Confrontation is what leads people to make these kinds of judgements.

And you STILL haven't yet challenged my argument about how something cannot come from nothingness (which is one of the basic laws of Physics). The idea that somehow the very, very first atom just magically came from nothing is quite illogical. Take it or leave it, I just do not find any substance to that argument.

In response to Carnifex, read such books as "Creation" by Dr. Grant Jeffrey for details about how Science and Religion are sometimes positively linked. Or the book Science and Christianity: Conflict or Coherence? by Dr. Henry Schaefer. Also understand a lot of the religious beliefs of the "big thinkers" of the last several centuries such as Albert Einstein and Isaac Newton. In fact, here's a famous Einstein quote - "Religion is ennobelized and validated by Science" (This, of course, is paraphrased). There's even some mathematical evidence suggesting a higher power (and as a Math Major, I'm aware of these things).

I understand that today in particular a lot of Scientists (particularly biologists and psychologists) turn to either Atheism or Agnosticism. Though I think the reason why is probably because they are constantly looking to see how the universe came to be and feel saying it was God who did it would be naive and uninformed. That's perfectly legitimate in the Scientific world. However, my opinion is that they certainly can't neglect the possibility of the existence of God, however doubtful they may be about it. So I guess my belief is that people should at least be somewhat agnostic. Even "doubtism" (which one of the posters here cleverly proclaimed to be his religion) is legitimate enough. I certainly don't claim to have never questioned my faith in God at one point in my life. I think every intelligent Christian has. But the decision I came to, after thinking about it enough and doing enough research on both Christianity and Atheism, is that yes there is a God.





And you notice I still happen to like my share of secular/un-Christian bands, despite my beliefs. So you certainly can't accuse me of being a religious fanatic. :roll:

Science has a theory, this means that they have an idea, but have no clue about the exact principle yet. It's possible to say "I don't know" as well, before introducing a superhero. Basicly, if you confirm what you just said, then that also means that the god had to appear from somewhere.

God is like the square root of minus one, it doesn't excist, but thinking it does may help you reach the goals you have in mind. I personally like to think that if there is something divine in this world, it's the universe herself, because her laws are unbreakable, and her mystery endless. I am perfectly aware that the chance that I am right in this pantheism is nihil, but I just like to think I am right, because it makes me feel happy, and that happens to be my goal in life. Live your life on your (personal) beliefs, but don't forget that the square root of a negative number does not exist.

This was a horrible attempt of wisdom from a silly boy.

good posts, here. I like Gast's idea that god is the eighteenth mule..

Actually, you can buy a whole book on the square root of -1 if you're interested. It's called "An Imaginary Tale. The Story Of The Square Root Of -1."

Anyway, you're definitely right about sometimes believing what you believe as a means to fulfill your goals. In fact, I think every religion/non-religion is like that to one degree or another. But belief is also an honest decision. And I do think a lot of it depends on life experiences. My personal life experiences led me to believe in a higher power. Though I understand there are plenty of people who came to the opposite conclusion. I think whether the existence of God is theoretical or not is probably up for debate, but it's one that I naturally stand by based on my own outlook of the world.

Intuition is what often guides belief. And everybody's intuition is a little different. I'll freely admit that I may be a bit biased because of my religious upbringing, but nonetheless, the existence of a higher power is the conclusion I came up with. And even some incorrect ideas I may have picked up as a child factor into my way of thinking (as they do with pretty much everybody - hence the wildly varying outlook people have on the world).

I've never made such a judgement.



It's a matter of pure speculation at this point.

Does this mean that god did it? I can't say no, but for people to automatically assume that an invisible superdude with a thing against anal sex was the one who created everything, especially when we used to fill in huge gaps with maniac gods and now have scientific explanations for nearly everything, is totally ridiculous.

Your assertion that god exists is unproven. If it's a matter of belief, then it has no place in a logical debate. If it's valid, then I could assert the theory that there are giant unicorns trampling NYC in the astral planes and nobody could say otherwise.



You godfellows cling feebly to any evidence that hints at a higher power and decry other theories with loads of evidence. Such hypocrisy.

I would note that bringing up Albert Einstein and Newton to score brownie points with the godfellows is silly, and is also a logical fallacy, known as an Argument from Authority.



I see. What's your empirical proof for the existence of this god?



I can accuse you of being a fool for believing in god, and I certainly will.

The bolded text I totally agree with.



Both Christians and Atheists do this sort of thing. Personal bias almost always gets in the way of debating, no matter what you're debating. It's an almost unavoidable fallacy.



That's fine. As long as we can agree to disagree. I'll definitely give you credit in agreeing that at this point there's probably no serious physical evidence of God's existence. But there's also probably no serious physical evidence of God's nonexistence either. Which is why these debates ultimately boil down to our beliefs. And the fact that there is so much diversity in religion (Atheism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, Islam, etc) certainly says a lot about how difficult (probably impossible at this point) it is to rigorously prove/disprove the existence of a God.

Glad to hear it.



Still a fallacy.



The one asserting something is the one whom the burden of proof falls on.

And yes, let's, given all the obstacles, there's no way you'll agree with me and lucifer will take a giant wormy shit on my morning oatmeal before I'll think there's a god.

Yes. Yes, it is, which is why that's not what the Big Bang theory says. The first atom is actually quite young as far as the universe goes. Energy expanded, which cooled to the various subatomic particles, quarks, gluons, muons, etc. It was fairly late in the whole process that actual atoms were formed.


You can describe randomness with math, too. It doesn't mean the randomness means anything in particular. As for these guys, they're laughable. Grant Jeffery has a Ph.D. in Bibical studies. I'd be surprised if he's even seen the inside of a science textbook. Henry Schaefer is a fundie with his head shoved so far up his ass he's probably never free from the smell of his own shit. His books aren't worth the paper they're printed on. Show me real scientific fact, then I'll believe in the existence of the Christian God of the Bible.

As for the religious beliefs of Newton or Einstein, what do they have to do with the debate at hand? They're beliefs, nothing more, with no evidence to support them.


Sure they can. There's no evidence to support the existence of God. There's plenty of evidence to support the body of scientific knowledge.


That's fine. But that's a belief, one that lacks any testable data to back it up. Don't claim as fact what is only belief.

I fully believe in the God of my own understanding. But I can't offer any testable data, thus I don't expect anyone else to share in my belief.

But then, you STILL haven't recognised the fact that the "nothingness" question goes both ways. If the universe can't have appeared from nowhere, why is it reasonable to say that God did? Like DM said, you're permanently applying totally different demands for evidence, which is why it's hard to have a reasonable discussion about religion. WHY is evolution even remotely coincidental or precise? Humans are scientifically severely flawed. Why is "doubtism" OK when it means thinking God may exist, but not my lemon-tree? Why is it acceptable for religious people to pick and choose their arguments, but not atheists- who apparently are wrong until they can provide a definite answer for everything? Why do you think that near death experiences involving hallucinations about tunnels and loved ones equates to an angelic experience? Don't you see why people have a hard time taking all of this seriously? How can you put credence in scientific/mathematical evidence for god, when so many people that study science to high levels become atheists? Because it may make them seems naive? I don't think so... if anything it means they can get used as a talking head on a Christian TV show.

There's a lot of questions. But then I suppose if you're brought up to have faith then none of them need to be answered. *ROLL EYES WINK*.

The whole "seeing angels" point is interesting. Reminds me of a study they did on people who had claimed to been abducted by aliens and tested on, etc. I can't remember it exactly, but they stimulated certain parts of a guy's brain, and he described having an experience very similar to the abductees. So, the brain is a funny thing. Just because I hit my head, and bright lights, doesn't mean those bright lights exist.

Seinfeld26, you haven't answered the point made earlier that belief in a god is just a way of dealing with problems. Having a hard time? God is testing you. Having a good time? God is rewarding you for praying to him/helping old ladies across the road etc. Surely the fact that it's all down to the individual makes much more sense? Or are you with those who think the Asian tsunami and New Orleans getting destroyed was god punishing them for being "hives of sin"?

God gives a free will. And a lot of this is up to the individual. But I also believe in God's communication through intuition. Certainly, the individual has a free will, but my belief is that God has a way of spiritually guiding the individual through his/her endeavors. Not just problems, but life in general. And from my experience, such spiritual guidence has always led me to make the right decisions (even if they seemed a little farfetched at the time).

As for God rewarding/punishing people. That I don't believe. I certainly don't believe He's a selfish/greedy God the way a lot of fundamentalists do. What I do believe is that God works in mysterious ways. Such as when something seemingly terrible happens, but then it somehow turns out to be the best thing that's ever happened to you. It's like, He has a reason for these things to happen, but also intends for them to be a great learning experience/life changing event for you. Thus, giving the greenlight on them.

There is the possibility that I may not be correct about God, but it is more or less the belief I hold. Regardless of how crazy it may sound. I suppose if you're an Atheist, religion seems like a comfort zone. But it's actually quite a bit more when you really get deep into it. Remember, a lot of Christians also have a FEAR of God. As in fearing what He may do if they don't follow a specific moral code.

I totally agree that the issue goes both ways. And I do respect Atheistic views. But it's really a case of being on one side of the fence and somebody else being on the other. As long as we don't try to throw each other off our fences.....

Also, remember that this is the internet. Debating via the internet is a lot harder than debating face to face. So forgive me if I seem a little one-sided.

Free will, so we can do what we want, right? First two of the ten commandments are about believing in god. Oh, not quite free will then. And homosexuals can forget it. As for your other point, this is one of the things I find most reprehensible about religion. Your baby daughter just got run over by a bus in front of your eyes? Never mind, it's just God's way of telling you you should quit your job. Bullshit! If God was as he is described, ie a god, he wouldn't need to hint. You'd just know, quit your job. Because he's GOD.

So if there's no reward/punishment system what difference does it make whether or not you worship him, if you won't get punished for it. You're telling me god holds Ted Bundy on the same level as Mother Theresa? Bullshit! The concept of reward/punishment is what religion's all about. Do as god says, or bad things will come.

Oh, sure, all it is about is learning about life. That's why god made the bus driver squash your kid. And the fact that these bastards hang around outside funeral directors preying on people doesn't endear them to me at all.

So if you fear god, why pick and choose? Follow exactly as he says, else WHALLOP! Either all or nothing please, there's no inbetween stage.

What is free will?

Free will = the idea that God gives you the choice to do good things or bad things, instead of forcing you to do good.

Hey, when did you change your username? Only just noticed!

Changed it a few minutes ago

What do you mean with the word "you" in the first sentence of your post?

Not "you changed it yourself" if that's what you mean, more "you got it changed". I'm assuming Mike didn't do it without you asking...

Yeah, Mike changed it of course, now please answer my question...