Metal Reviews

There has been a lot of talk going on here lately, about the rising number of abortions of embryos with Downs Syndrome. Instead of giving advices, the doctor's hand the parents an abortion form.

I will forever be biased since I have a brother with Downs Syndrome, but I think when certain people throw out comments like "throwing out the garbage to create a perfect society", they have not seen the whole perspective, and I actually find comments like that a little frightening.

If the child has very little chances of survival due to other diseases, I definitely see why the parents may choose to have an abortion for their own and the child's sake to spare it from the suffering. But, I find it a little cowardly when the lone reason for abortion is that they "don't want" a child with Downs because it's different, and because it demands more attention both economically, physically, and mentally. It's so easy to skip challenges in todays society, it's almost a little scary.

Now, just to let you know, even though I think people should take the concequences of their own mistakes, I am pro-choice if the reason is unwanted pregnancy, downs or not. However, if the child has some kind of disease that may demand some extra work, I am very much against it, even though I know not much can be done about it.

What is your views? Can't a child with Downs Syndrome live a respectable life of a certain quality in any way? Are they, as some morons ssay, less worth than us normal people?

If the parents will put some work in it, like mine have, it is definitely possible to give a child with Downs a worthy life.

No one wants a Downs baby, so the idea of aborting it is really tempting for pretty much everyone, but some families I know say that their Downs child is the best thing that could've happened to them. It's sort of funny how our scoiety keeps evolving to cut out all the things we don't want, even though they might not be as bad as we think they are.

It's their decision, but personally, I can't imagine anyone wanting to raise a kid with Down's if they have the option not to (ie; the option to abort).

This. I've known a few kids with Down's Syndrome, and they've all been great, but if it happened to me (and my partner, obv.) I wouldn't hesitate in aborting.

Let's not forget that DS is, in essence, a genetic illness, a disease - if we can eradicate smallpox or AIDS by not breeding those infected, why should DS be any different? In an ideal world, it wouldn't exist, and if the selection of embryos/abortion of infected foetuses can help that, why not? You say that people don't want the challenges of raising a disabled child, Thom, that people should have the right to abort if they don't want the pregnancy, but then you say if the reason is because of the child's illness you're against it?! Seriously, that just doesn't make sense.

People with DS can live a respectable life and they are in no way subhuman. But using that as an excuse for bringing more into the world? It's very flawed logic, in my view, and no doubt I sound cold and cynical to the more religious of you (the people LOTN mentioned who said that having a DS baby was the 'best thing that ever happened to them' must have had serious problems if something like that can detract) but that's the way I see it.

When people start talking about an "ideal world," it makes me squirm.

Also:



Because AIDS and smallpox are infectious. Smallpox is highly contagious, and AIDS can spread from person to person, much unlike DS.

Also, I can't really take you seriously when you assume that the people I've talked to have "must have had serious problems." That's their testimony, and they're speaking from their own experience. You've never had a DS baby, so you can't assume things like that... Well, you can, but you end up sounding pretty silly.

Why dosesn't it make sense that I think it's unethical to have an abortion because the child is disabled opposed to unwanted pregnancy? A child with downs is just as much of a child as a healthy kid. If you don't want the child, then fine, but if you want it and have an abortion because it's disabled, I find it a little unethical yes.

And when will we ever have an ideal world, Zad? That would be a world without sickness, crime, international crisis, wars, third world countries etc. When will that ever happen? Never, and if we were to make that happen we would have to get rid of a serious lot of people.

And I agree with LoG, that you do sound a little ridicolous when stating that those parents must have serius problems. Do you even know what joy children, even disabled ones, bring with them?

I agree with Goat and DM. Modern medicine enables us to choose things that earlier were unavoidable. I don't think that the joy a child can bring can only be exclusively brought by specific children. I'd much rather have a healthy child than one with DS, if I had the choice.

I'm staying out of this one, mainly because I don't want kids

The point is that everyone would. No one ever says "I want a child with Downs." It just doesn't happen. So when people find out that their kids are going to have Downs, they'll be so much more inclined to take the easy way out. And I'm not saying that people end up being happier with DS babies than normal babies, (and I am pro-choice, so don't get me wrong) but going down the path of selective abortions because it's not the "perfect child" seems to lead down some kinda scary avenues.

Points in order:

1. Genetic diseases are genetic diseases. Orthodox Ashkenazi Jews have tests prior to arranged marriages to avoid Tay-Sachs. One illness being more fatal than another doesn't mean you can't do everything you can to avoid both now, does it?

2. All I meant by the 'must have serious problems' bit was that in order for all the work and love that a DS child needs to be the best yadda yadda, what is it a distraction from? Children are a joy (let's not bring in examples of the many times that they're not) but I know people for whom they are clearly the one thing holding the marriage together, and that includes a family with a DS child.

3. Thomas, if you don't want a child because of, say, the extra time and money that proper care of it takes, then why is it suddenly not alright if it's a DS child and will take even more time and money? If one reason's good, the other is too.

4. As for the BUT WHAT ABOUT WAR bit of your argument, that's ridiculous. Obviously, we fix the things we can.

DS is not always a positive thing for people. You're putting your own experience onto everyone else and expecting them to live up to that. Like Frigid said, if you had the choice you know damn well what you'd choose.

Edit: Legacy, DS is not a little thing that stops a nearly perfect child being perfect. It's a fucking major issue, and is more than enough to make a decision like abortion a natural thing to do for many people.

And the "fucking scary avenue" you're talking about is probably eugenics, right? Well, even that's debatable. Some people should NOT be allowed to raise kids.

Of course, as long as the parameters for that are established in a sensible way.

As for being able to abort a pregnancy when the 'outcome' (haha, too literal ) would be a disabled child: of course! Let's not forget we're animals.

It's not eugenics, ffs; that that word can even be seriously brought up in reference to abortion shows how hysterical the debate can be.

No, I don't, because I haven't been presented with the situation. You're doing the same thing you're accusing me of doing. Don't peg me down like that.

And no, it's not a positive thing when people find out their child has Downs, nor may it be a positive thing if they decide to have the child, if they're not willing to put forth the effort, and so on. Still, people seem to want to take the easy way out, that's all I'm saying.



Tay-Sachs is fatal, DS isn't. Tay-Sachs is carried through recessive genes, and Downs is more of a chance occurence. According to Wikipedia, familial Downs accounts for only 2-3% of observed Down syndromes.



Again, you're assuming that they must have problems to be distracted from. You're disregarding their testimony based on your assumptions that "they must have had problems, and now the DS kid is distracting them from them."



I know it's a major, life-changing thing, and if people decide to have the abortion, then so be it. They can if they want to.

I'm so sick of this arrogance; people who think they know best about everything.

Re: the issue

Of course, technological advancement is always a good thing so long as it is put to use to benefit people. Providing parents with choice on issues such as this is beneficial, although I can see why many would be uncomfortable with the idea.

Wasn't talking about you at the start there. Yeah, like 90% of people from what I've read. So why was it the best thing to happen to them? Admittedly I don't know the details of your case.

Edit: @ Legacy, obv.

Wasn't there a case where some woman was deemed too stupid to raise her child recently? What do you think of that, rio?

Come on, it's not arrogance. It's common sense. You need a license to own a dog. Why are there no criteria for being a parent?

+1



+1 again.

That's not exactly what I mean, but I won't bother trying to explain it right now anyway.



I never said WHAT ABOUT WAR?! Stop doing that there, I believe you got my point. There will never be an ideal world.

One of thepoints I'd like to get some buzz around here is how the doctors more or less pushes the parents into incredibly hard situations when the facts are there, handing them abortion forms right after they've gotten their result?

There are a vast amount of criteria for being a parent. Children are taken into care every day because of bad parenting.

The "science" of eugenics logically presupposes a list of undesirables. Formulating that list is something I certainly wouldn't trust you, or anybody else with.

You're talking about "common sense"; seems to me that anybody that actually values individual autonomy and the limiting of governmental authority over personal life would find it "common sense" that the state dictating who can or cannot get pregnant and give birth is dictatorial, even totalitarian.