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Who will/would you pick?
Obama 74%  74%  [ 29 ]
Hilary 13%  13%  [ 5 ]
McCain 13%  13%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 39
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:37 am 
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rio wrote:
Someone should do also something about the skinhead bouncers in bomber jackets that stand around taking photos of anti-BNP protestors to put on sites like Redwatch (google it, I think posting a link will violate some forum rules).

He's in no position to be complaining about free speech and democracy...

Forcibly disrupting conferences is probably counter-productive, but I'd support eggings all the way. In fact, wouldn't it be hilarious if he could get covered by eggs in every public appearance during his time as an MEP :D


Haven't the BNP officially repudiated Redwatch? I think you're underestimating just how successful their image change has been. They even have a jewish councillor, ffs; people like UAF are just making themselves look silly with their hysteria - if Griffin can make himself sound tolerant he'll look calm and professional in comparison (if he dropped that whites-only membership rule, the current critics would have the carpet yanked right from under them, that would be the smart thing for him to do).


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:58 am 
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Goat wrote:
Agreed, people need to bring socialism up to date and get their heads out of the past. There will be no revolution, guys, so pining for one is just wasting everyone's time whilst the right successfully blames centre-left expenditure for the economic woes.

Depressingly, people I talk to regarding this aren't supporting the Tories seemingly just because of their lack of apparent policies. If Cameron gets his arse in gear and reveals a new plan for a new Britain or some similar bullshit then the left might as well just go to sleep for the next decade.


Sure but then presumably actual Tory policies would turn people off as much as on... He's keeping quiet for a reason.

But I certainly don't mean we need an alliance with Liberals or Blairites. We should not be aiming for actual government, but instead for a strong, consistent presence that unites a wide range of people without compromising a radical left agenda. (Yes, this can be done whislt simultaneously dropping the dogma). We should be aiming for something similar to this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Left_(Germany)

That should be the target.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:06 am 
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Goat wrote:
rio wrote:
Someone should do also something about the skinhead bouncers in bomber jackets that stand around taking photos of anti-BNP protestors to put on sites like Redwatch (google it, I think posting a link will violate some forum rules).

He's in no position to be complaining about free speech and democracy...

Forcibly disrupting conferences is probably counter-productive, but I'd support eggings all the way. In fact, wouldn't it be hilarious if he could get covered by eggs in every public appearance during his time as an MEP :D


Haven't the BNP officially repudiated Redwatch? I think you're underestimating just how successful their image change has been. They even have a jewish councillor, ffs; people like UAF are just making themselves look silly with their hysteria - if Griffin can make himself sound tolerant he'll look calm and professional in comparison (if he dropped that whites-only membership rule, the current critics would have the carpet yanked right from under them, that would be the smart thing for him to do).


OK but you're underestimating who they actually are, and how superficial their image change is. They MIGHT drop the no non-whites rule, but that would destroy them because it is what so many of its membership, including Griffin himself, are deeply committed to. So long as I'm not misinformed, the constitutional change banning non-whites is not some relic from the Tyndall days, it was specifically introduced recently under pressure from the parties membership, worried about the moderation going too far.

Maybe UAF's tactics are hysterical, but if anything the image change makes it worse. Actually revealing Nick Griffin and Andrew Brons's backgrounds is the right tactic.

The good news is, if you think the far left suffers from internal squabbling, have a look at far right history :D This process of being integrated in the European Parliament is really going to fuck them up.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:18 am 
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rio wrote:
OK but you're underestimating who they actually are, and how superficial their image change is. They MIGHT drop the no non-whites rule, but that would destroy them because it is what so many of its membership, including Griffin himself, are deeply committed to. So long as I'm not misinformed, the constitutional change banning non-whites is not some relic from the Tyndall days, it was specifically introduced recently under pressure from the parties membership, worried about the moderation going too far.

Maybe UAF's tactics are hysterical, but if anything the image change makes it worse. Actually revealing Nick Griffin and Andrew Brons's backgrounds is the right tactic.

The good news is, if you think the far left suffers from internal squabbling, have a look at far right history :D This process of being integrated in the European Parliament is really going to fuck them up.


Ah, sure, I really doubt that they're sensible enough to try and reposition themselves like NuLab and Cameron's Conservatives. I assumed that Tyndall wouldn't want nonwhites in either, didn't know that was a recent rule but the fact they've switched targets from Jews to Islam shows that they do have some idea of the lcd public mindset.

No problems with revealing Griffin's past, but can't it be done by a respected journalist rather than by a political fringe who are seen as equally extremist by a good measure of the British public? Get a proper debate going, perhaps with John Humphrys moderating.

I assumed the BNP would just join up with Jorg Haider etc in the EP...

As for the Tories, I think Cameron's too clever to let the silence go on for long. He knows that the policies are what people want from him, and he'll deliver. And a Lefty Party might be an idea, but the left over here uniting, seriously? Hm. I think a Green/Liberal/moderate left alliance would be more likely... we need a new centre-left party, and the Lib Dems are as butterfingery as ever. Pessimistic of me, perhaps, but I think the left has missed its chance, yet again, and we have to grit our teeth for another decade or so of the right's dominance.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:28 am 
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The BNP will join up with Haider, sure. But for an organisation of extremist woodlice, they are crawling dangerously far from out under their damp rock.

Funny thing about the Tories... guess who else has just pulled out of the mainstream conservative EU grouping, to join the one populated by the BNP, Haider's party, not to mention various parties with names like "Bulgarian National Attack" and so forth?

EDIT: oh yes, and Alessandra Mussolini's party, as well :wacko:


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:41 am 
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rio wrote:
The BNP will join up with Haider, sure. But for an organisation of extremist woodlice, they are crawling dangerously far from out under their damp rock.

Funny thing about the Tories... guess who else has just pulled out of the mainstream conservative EU grouping, to join the one populated by the BNP, Haider's party, not to mention various parties with names like "Bulgarian National Attack" and so forth?

EDIT: oh yes, and Alessandra Mussolini's party, as well :wacko:


Indeed, hopefully that'll become a serious chip in their windscreen.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:00 pm 
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Possible progress from the SWP?

http://leninology.blogspot.com/2009/06/ ... -left.html

Unfortunately as it is printed in Socialist Worker, nobody will read it.

Quote:
Mark Serwotka, the general secretary of the PCS civil service workers’ union, has asked how, come the general election, can we ask working people to cast a ballot for ministers like Pat McFadden.

McFadden is pushing through the privatisation of the post office.

Serwotka proposes that trade unions should stand candidates.

Those who campaigned against the BNP in the elections know that when they said to people, “Don’t vote Nazi” they were often then asked who people should vote for.

The fact that there is no single, united left alternative to Labour means there was no clear answer available.

The European election results demonstrate that the left of Labour vote was small, fragmented and dispersed.

The Greens did not make significant gains either. The mass of Labour voters simply did not vote. We cannot afford a repeat of that.

The SWP is all too aware of the differences and difficulties involved in constructing such an alternative.

We do not believe we have all the answers or a perfect prescription for a left wing alternative.

But we do believe we have to urgently start a debate and begin planning to come together to offer such an alternative at the next election, with the awareness that Gordon Brown might not survive his full term.

One simple step would be to convene a conference of all those committed to presenting candidates representing working class interests at the next election.

The SWP is prepared to help initiate such a gathering and to commit its forces to such a project.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:09 pm 
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Hmph, yeah, not exactly a popular paper. Sending copies to the Guardian would be a good start.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:23 pm 
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Indeed.

But ultimately a change in the SWP's attitude (i.e. not seeing itself as the only ideologically pure left wing party in the world, and not lecturing others about why they are bourgeois stooges) has to be a good thing. That is what it signifies that is important, more than how many will read it.

The idea of it acquiescing to joining some kind of left bloc featuring the Greens, the trade unions, various SLP/no2eu types, campaigning groups, Respect types, and ex-Labourites would be progress indeed.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:14 pm 
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odd, isn't it, how large leftist groups seem to fragment? there's probably more active communist parties in the US then there are beans in the average can.

each with like 10-20 members might i add.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:58 am 
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This was interesting, rio: Polly Toynbee debates/argues politely with Nick Clegg, one of the more intelligent discussions I've seen recently. He says that we need a referendum on PR before the gen. election, which I agree with.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/vide ... nick-clegg


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:48 am 
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will have to watch that laters as its work time currently. cheers, Goat


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 2:00 pm 
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Jesus Christ, Iran.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:40 pm 
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Very succinctly said, Zad.

brief overview for the uninformed: It quite looks like someone stole the election for Ahmadinejad and there are massive riots in Iran ever since the announcement of the electoral results by Moussavi supporters, most of whom are city-dwelling middle-classers. There have been cars set on fire, motorcycles burned, police stations captured, I believe 3-5 dead, dozens wounded, etc.

After supporting the electoral results on election day, Khameini issued a decree that electoral fraud be investigated. There are all sorts of rumors floating around about whether Rafsjani (head of the council of Experts, the council which selects the Ayatollah) will try to remove Khameini, but that's incredibly doubtful.

Tehran University has been quite ransacked; protesters used it as a base of operations but then the police came in and there was quite the brutal melee. Thousands have been arrested over the past few days. There are basiji (secret police) and Hezbollah troops all over the place in Iran trying to keep the peace and failing.

as expected, Ahmadinejad has said 'this election was real, stop being babies,' but the Western medias' official stance is that of 'no fucking way.'

all in all, quite the problematic situation. Keep an eye on this, fellows.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 3:15 pm 
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Thanks for the recap. Wasn't that democracy established by an American influenced insurgency?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 3:26 pm 
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The current system in Iran dates back to the revolution in 1979, which was against the West-friendly Shah. It was a popular revolution involving a wide variety of currents including Marxist ones, but ultimately was coopted by Ayatollah Khomeini, and they ended up with something worse than what they started with.

The last actual US backed insurgency in Iran was 1953, when Mossadegh was overthrown by the CIA to reinstate the Shah.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:06 pm 
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Mossadegh was overthrown because he nationalized Iran's oil supply and the british spazzed out until the CIA could step in.

Hezbollah isn't there, actually, it's just basiji. Hezbollah would be better at keeping the peace.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:03 pm 
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I'm currently reading about how in Sri Lanka and Indonesia, after the tsunami, had their beaches sold off to resort hotels rather than letting the local fishermen return and live off the land they'd been living on for decades. The relief money people sent to the tsunami victims apparently build roads to these resorts that the locals had no use for. :sad:


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:47 pm 
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Fascinating seeing capitalism in action.
Just shows our ability to profit from even the worst of tragedies.

Image

_________________
I am not here, then, as the accused; I am here as the accuser of capitalism dripping with blood from head to foot.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 12:31 am 
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rofl I love how it looks sad.


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