Metal Reviews

All good points.
We shouldn't be slaves to our desires, as you put it, and we should be better than the lower animals, but oftentimes, that is not the case.
And the first world status is unsustainable (and a recipe for war). I agree.
But, like I said, human nature dictates that there will always be the yoke-bearer and the slave driver, the haves and the have-nots, the exploited and the the exploiter, ... neither right, nor wrong, just the way things are. For all our skyscrapers and technological feats, we are still inextricably bound to the hindbrain's instincts of survival (domination) and power. Humans are natures biggest walking contradiction.

The generation preceding mine had a lot of ideals, and they really fucked things up for us and those that came after us. Don't even mention the baby-boomers to me, the most self indulgent, spoiled and hypocritical generation I have seen yet. Perhaps the "me" generation, the free-love preaching, street-marching cum stock trading, latte-drinking, "I'm the man, now" 60-somethings have soured my outlook on so-called revolution.

Like the song says: Make way for the new boss, same as the old boss.

But, like I said, good luck in your endeavors, and I am not saying that ironically or with any hint of sarcasm.

For me, (outside of the usual familial concerns) the biggest thing on my mind is how to speed up and clean up my sweep picking, so I take my leave from this discussion, as it were.

You seem to use the accusation "vote splitter" like Stalin might say "class enemy" or something. You are on about "sending a message" about wanting a different direction at the ballot box, so explain why voting No2EU isn't doing exactly this? Surely it's a far, far greater gesture of discontentment than voting Green. The reason you're complaining I suspect is just because you don't like who I voted for, not because of all this tactical shapeshifting, right?

Where did I get the idea that I should vote for the party that represents best my own beliefs? Well.... I don't know.... what a loon I must be.

Also, pls drop the Spanish Inquisition act... I'm not going to send you my CV or my life story for you to pick holes in, which is what you seem to want to do. I am satisfied that I contribute to the values I support, that is all. And the idea that a Lib Dem (btw, the ultimate, most unforgivable vote splitters themselves) supporter is trying to give me a grilling about sabotaging the left or some other rubbish is pretty nonsensical.

Yes, best of luck, DM, sounds like what you're doing is very worthy.

Don't let people tell you you aren't contributing anything because you don't share their faith in their quadrennial box-ticking ceremony.

I wish I could get politically involved, but local politics just make me shudder...

At least the Green party are going to take up their seats, and yes, the fact that no2eu aren't seems pretty useless and it's that I object to rather than anything else. And blah this is going in circles now, but I'm voting for a party based on its manifesto - exactly what you're doing, non? - and trusting them to stick to it - ditto.

Well indeed, I don't have a problem with anybody voting Green; in fact I encourage it and sincerely hope they do well.

But, I vote on whose beliefs are closest to my own, and nothing else. In a general or local election, I probably would indeed vote Green.

The problem I have is people who are trying to tell me what the best way to support the cause of the left is, and that I am somehow sabotaging it by not voting for a more centrist party. That attitude, IMO, may well be one of the reasons behind the fact that the left is now a worthless shell.

I think the point of not taking the seat up is so that they could use the ample resources that being elected gives them in the local area rather than on srs European business (running an office in Brussels etc.). i.e. converting EU wealth into local wealth. But whatever, I certainly don't endorse their entire platform.

I blame Edward Bernays for everything that's wrong with the world today.

oh, him and Woodrow Wilson.

At least we kept our two seats. But now are level with the BNP. And UKIP came in second. Here's an egg, England. Hold it up to yourself. Lepredog is not amused.

Yep, pretty shit.

so how is it exactly that the Fascist Party got a seat, guys? Is it just because people are really that angry at Labour or is there another reason?

It's 99% people deserting Labour. In many places the number of votes they got decreased, but rose as a proportion.

Anyway, no more politics thread for me for the indefinite future; it's just depressing, and I end up just getting annoyed and posting exaggerated angry nonsense.

Too much serious business

The centre-left has done poorly all over Europe. Although I did see the Swedes got a seat for their Pirate Party, so all is not lost.

Worst case scenario for England: Conservative government with UKIP opposition? Depressing indeed.

I know I said no more politics thread above, but perhaps I should change that to "no more long arguments, just constructive input"

Goat, I think we should bear in mind that these are Euro elections, and most people don't like the EU (some dislike the institution itself which IMO is legitimate, some just dislike Europeans which IMO is not). The natural receptacle for that dislike is rightwing parties, because they are xenophobic, most obviously UKIP unless you are a fascist in which case the BNP.

Whilst the results are extremely depressing, they will most likely be substantialy different in an actual General Election where the EU itself is not the principle. No way in hell will UKIP finish second in an actual British general election. Labour will finish second in a GE, I predict.

Heh, true, hence my putting 'worst case scenario'. Assuming Labour replace Brown, I can see them coming second, although it is quite amazing how far along UKIP have come and how badly Labour did, although they do seem to generally do poorly in European elections. They've certainly been decimated locally.

Funny how ''lefty'' some of the BNP policies are. Very anti-privatisation, if not for their dark history I could totally see more people voting for them. Of course, the fact that Griffin looks like a creepy version of Ricky Gervais doesn't help... that glass eye is freaky.

I don't actually hate all mainstream politicians and parliamentary democracy as much as you'd think from the last few pages... it makes me sound like a revolutionary Maoist or something.

Even in the Labour Party there are still people I admire and would vote for (McDonnell, Cruddas, etc.). In fact, more in the Labour Party than in the Lib Dems, even now.

I just think that the electoral system is not real democracy; it equates to a power of veto every couple of years. Real democracy means having control over our everyday environments, which cannot be done when we are so dependent on representatives. And I think real progress comes when ordinary people force it on to the agenda, not from politicians who are more likely to start wars.

As for the BNP; they do have some characteristics you'd think of as leftist i.e. nationalisations, public services. But, they come at it from a totally different angle. Both left and far right see it as a means to an end, but the end is totally different. For them, things have to be nationalised so that they can become integrated into the glorious Nation. It's not about egalitarianism.

Oh sure, it's just that a lot of people equate the far left and right and paint them as being basically the same, you know, the "National Socialist... SOCIALIST!" crowd. Good to hear you're not an angry Maoist, too, haha.

Anyone who lives in the first world can't really be a Maoist, Maoists are of the opinion that the entirety of the first world is bourgeoisie.

Maoism was very trendy in the first world for a time; the idea of the world's downtrodden peasantry getting their own back appealed to a lot of intellectuals, I guess, in the era of decolonisation.



Yeah, that does my head in because it doesn't make sense; seems like just a right wing way of disowning the BNP and the Nazis and all of that baggage, thus rehabilitating their tradition.

There is no way around the fact that Hitler based his entire project on defeating the labour movement, crushing radical egalitarianism, and bending everything to the services of the national government. In other words, pretty much everything that the left has ever stood against.

There is a similarity between fascism and what you might call the "wrong sorts" of far-leftism. Both demand the subservience of the individual to the collective. In the former case, the Nation, and in the latter case, the Class. This is why Stalinism and Maoism are almost as bad as Nazism in practice. Hence why they are so often presented as the same thing nowadays.

This is why IMO the radical left has to take libertarian issues as one of its fundamental building blocks. i.e. participatory democracy, and opposition to centralism. If a radical left organisation isn't built on those principles, then it must fail.

Oh, indeed. I wish some of them would get on with the falling part -
far too many of the lefty partys are given over to infighting - that we have both a Communist Party of Britain and a Communist Party of Great Britain is fucking ridiculous. The lefty line the Lib Dems have taken is the sole reason I'm supporting them when I can't vote Green. Come on guys, I want to see a proper lefty alliance - Respect - Galloway + SWP + SLP, say. It'll never happen, of course.