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fluffy_ferret
Metal Slave
Joined: 05 Feb 2005
Posts: 94
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 Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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That's exactly what i said?
| following the reaper wrote: | | fluffy_ferret wrote: | Wasn't this a discussion about technical proficiency and not how good you think the albums actually are? ;)
| Pasqua wrote: | | Quote: | | Wintersun is the first thing that came to mind. |
I've just downloaded their first album and gave it a few spins.
It's very good, thanks for the tip, I'll keep an eye on them.
But I still think Hatebreeder is better. I don't think it's crazy to think that, just look at Hatebreeder's scores and Wintersun's, Hatebreeder got 3 100's and one 97. So if thinking Hatebreeder's better is crazy, guess I'm not the only one 
One thing I have to admit, Wintersun's debut is a lot better than COB's Something Wild. So there's potential there, maybe their second could be even better. Death and the Healing is AWESOME, they have killer melodies here and there, but there are times the drum goes too fast to the point it becomes annoying. And I think Hatebreeder has a lot more catchy riffs spread throughout the songs than Wintersun's. Not only catchy, but heavy and melodic as hell.
Anyway, thanks for the tip, I loved it. Gonna check other bands mentioned here now. |
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Technical proficiency has nothing to do with how good an album is. |
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Pasqua
Metal Lord
Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 440
Location: Sao Paulo, Brazil
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| Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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| stuartn15ted wrote: | | following the reaper wrote: | | stuartn15ted wrote: | | following the reaper wrote: | | fluffy_ferret wrote: | Wasn't this a discussion about technical proficiency and not how good you think the albums actually are? ;)
| Pasqua wrote: | | Quote: | | Wintersun is the first thing that came to mind. |
I've just downloaded their first album and gave it a few spins.
It's very good, thanks for the tip, I'll keep an eye on them.
But I still think Hatebreeder is better. I don't think it's crazy to think that, just look at Hatebreeder's scores and Wintersun's, Hatebreeder got 3 100's and one 97. So if thinking Hatebreeder's better is crazy, guess I'm not the only one
One thing I have to admit, Wintersun's debut is a lot better than COB's Something Wild. So there's potential there, maybe their second could be even better. Death and the Healing is AWESOME, they have killer melodies here and there, but there are times the drum goes too fast to the point it becomes annoying. And I think Hatebreeder has a lot more catchy riffs spread throughout the songs than Wintersun's. Not only catchy, but heavy and melodic as hell.
Anyway, thanks for the tip, I loved it. Gonna check other bands mentioned here now. |
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Technical proficiency has nothing to do with how good an album is. |
True just listen to DragonForce |
If they couldnt write good music, they would suck, no matter how well they played their axes. |
They can't write good music and they do suck 
But seriously, very average IMHO. |
Agreed, I didn't dig Dragonforce that much at my first listens. Too fast for me. Seems like they're trying to break some record instead of creating music.
I don't love Hatebreeder because it's excellent technically (it is), but because I think it has killer riffs spread throughout all the songs, riffs that are based on classical music, wihout loosing heaviness. Even the slow ones, like Bed Of Razors, that song is amazing.
I'm checking out the other bands mentioned here, and Wintersun is the one I liked the most so far.
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Misha
MetalReviews Staff
Joined: 26 Sep 2004
Posts: 5871
Location: Veldhoven - The Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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Must it be metal?
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FrigidSymphony
MetalReviews Staff
Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Posts: 7050
Location: Aberdeen
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| Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Misha wrote: | | Must it be metal? |
yes. otherwise it would be to easy to say something like Glenn Gould doing the golberg variations or something like that.
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Pasqua
Metal Lord
Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 440
Location: Sao Paulo, Brazil
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| Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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| FrigidSymphony wrote: | | Misha wrote: | | Must it be metal? |
yes. otherwise it would be to easy to say something like Glenn Gould doing the golberg variations or something like that. |
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FrigidSymphony
MetalReviews Staff
Joined: 25 Feb 2006
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Location: Aberdeen
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| Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Pasqua wrote: | | FrigidSymphony wrote: | | Misha wrote: | | Must it be metal? |
yes. otherwise it would be to easy to say something like Glenn Gould doing the golberg variations or something like that. |
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seriously, there are too many totally insane classical musicians out there. I live with one..
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Pasqua
Metal Lord
Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 440
Location: Sao Paulo, Brazil
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| Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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| FrigidSymphony wrote: | | Pasqua wrote: | | FrigidSymphony wrote: | | Misha wrote: | | Must it be metal? |
yes. otherwise it would be to easy to say something like Glenn Gould doing the golberg variations or something like that. |
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seriously, there are too many totally insane classical musicians out there. I live with one.. |
You're right! Anyway, I love Hatebreeder exactly for its classical influences.
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FrigidSymphony
MetalReviews Staff
Joined: 25 Feb 2006
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Location: Aberdeen
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| Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Pasqua wrote: | | FrigidSymphony wrote: | | Pasqua wrote: | | FrigidSymphony wrote: | | Misha wrote: | | Must it be metal? |
yes. otherwise it would be to easy to say something like Glenn Gould doing the golberg variations or something like that. |
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seriously, there are too many totally insane classical musicians out there. I live with one.. |
You're right! Anyway, I love Hatebreeder exactly for its classical influences. |
uh... i don't know hatebreeder inside out like I do SA but... I only heard like two sections that were I think mozart compositions...
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noodles
Ist Krieg
Joined: 23 Jul 2005
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Location: Canada
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Pasqua
Metal Lord
Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 440
Location: Sao Paulo, Brazil
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| Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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| noodles wrote: | | Yeah, its kind of like saying I like Psyopus for their classical influences =\ |
I don't know what Psyopus sound like, but I hear lots of classical INFLUENCED riffs in Hatebreeder. Downfall's solo. Bed Of Razors has some classical influenced riffs. What about Black Widow. Hatebreeder has some excerpts. So does Towards Dead End.
I agree Hatebreeder is not the most classical influenced album out there, far from it, but the great thing is it has the perfect mix of classical and  .... lots of
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rio
MetalReviews Staff
Joined: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 8166
Location: Leeds, UK
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| Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 12:47 am Post subject: |
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In terms of technique
Jazz musicians> Classical musicians
Not only do jazz musicians have to play faster, they also have to make stuff up as they go along so you have to know a lot of techy musical details like what scale you can play over which chords etc.
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stuartn15ted
Metal King
Joined: 19 Oct 2005
Posts: 1428
Location: Brighton
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| Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 12:52 am Post subject: |
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| rio wrote: | In terms of technique
Jazz musicians> Classical musicians
Not only do jazz musicians have to play faster, they also have to make stuff up as they go along so you have to know a lot of techy musical details like what scale you can play over which chords etc. |
I don't know about that, improv yes but playing faster?? It depends what you listen to, John Williams is insanely fast. Among the fastest i have ever seen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3kfGKPvu04&search=John%20Williams%20%20Asturias
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noodles
Ist Krieg
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Location: Canada
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| Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:05 am Post subject: |
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I don't think you can make a definitive statement, since most classical musicians probably could improvise if they practiced at it a bunch (which they probably do)...
ps. improv is boring
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rio
MetalReviews Staff
Joined: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 8166
Location: Leeds, UK
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| Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:19 am Post subject: |
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| noodles wrote: |
ps. improv is boring |
No it isn't.
And we're not talking about what they could do if they learnt, we're talking about what they do do already...
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Last edited by rio on Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:20 am; edited 1 time in total |
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rio
MetalReviews Staff
Joined: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 8166
Location: Leeds, UK
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| Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:19 am Post subject: |
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| stuartn15ted wrote: | | rio wrote: | In terms of technique
Jazz musicians> Classical musicians
Not only do jazz musicians have to play faster, they also have to make stuff up as they go along so you have to know a lot of techy musical details like what scale you can play over which chords etc. |
I don't know about that, improv yes but playing faster?? It depends what you listen to, John Williams is insanely fast. Among the fastest i have ever seen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3kfGKPvu04&search=John%20Williams%20%20Asturias |
Well that dude is awesome but Brecker is even awesomer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEVTDeNpjPo&mode=related&search=
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metalNESS
Ist Krieg
Joined: 18 Mar 2005
Posts: 9506
Location: Omaha, Nebraska U.S.
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| Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:27 am Post subject: |
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| rio wrote: | | noodles wrote: |
ps. improv is boring |
No it isn't.
And we're not talking about what they could do if they learnt, we're talking about what they do do already... |
So when Miles Davis was born he could instantly play improv jazz? He practiced improve, b/c jazz focuses more on it. If classical music focused more on improv I’m sure there would be classical musicians who could improvise, but it doesn't, so there aren’t any. |
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stuartn15ted
Metal King
Joined: 19 Oct 2005
Posts: 1428
Location: Brighton
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| Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:30 am Post subject: |
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I really enjoyed that vid, they're pretty dam good!
But its very difficult to compare classical with Jazz. Two very different types of music that are both technically very difficult to play.
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rio
MetalReviews Staff
Joined: 17 Sep 2004
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Location: Leeds, UK
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| Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:37 am Post subject: |
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| metalNESS wrote: | | rio wrote: | | noodles wrote: |
ps. improv is boring |
No it isn't.
And we're not talking about what they could do if they learnt, we're talking about what they do do already... |
So when Miles Davis was born he could instantly play improv jazz? He practiced improve, b/c jazz focuses more on it. If classical music focused more on improv I’m sure there would be classical musicians who could improvise, but it doesn't, so there aren’t any. |
Right, and improvisation at the highest level frequently involves a larger amount of technical ability than the equivalent in classical music. Irrespective of whether classical musicians could do it with practice, the fact is that they don't practice it so they can't. I'm not sure what you mean here.
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rio
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Joined: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 8166
Location: Leeds, UK
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| Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:40 am Post subject: |
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| stuartn15ted wrote: |
I really enjoyed that vid, they're pretty dam good!
But its very difficult to compare classical with Jazz. Two very different types of music that are both technically very difficult to play. |
Yeah, it is unfair to compare really. But jazz always takes it for me because of the mental agility involved as well. You're not just reading notes, you're reading vague chord symbols and instantly having to think of a whole load of different patterns that could fit over it.
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metalNESS
Ist Krieg
Joined: 18 Mar 2005
Posts: 9506
Location: Omaha, Nebraska U.S.
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| Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:48 am Post subject: |
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| rio wrote: | | metalNESS wrote: | | rio wrote: | | noodles wrote: |
ps. improv is boring |
No it isn't.
And we're not talking about what they could do if they learnt, we're talking about what they do do already... |
So when Miles Davis was born he could instantly play improv jazz? He practiced improve, b/c jazz focuses more on it. If classical music focused more on improv I’m sure there would be classical musicians who could improvise, but it doesn't, so there aren’t any. |
Right, and improvisation at the highest level frequently involves a larger amount of technical ability than the equivalent in classical music. Irrespective of whether classical musicians could do it with practice, the fact is that they don't practice it so they can't. I'm not sure what you mean here. |
I get that a lot. You said | Quote: | | And we're not talking about what they could do if they learnt, we're talking about what they do already... |
I was saying, ok if they learned how to play improv I'm sure they could. You can't say classical musicians can't do it, if they practiced I'm sure some of them could. However, they have no need to b/c the genre itself doesn't concentrate on improvisation. Make any sense? 
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